Do You Think There’s Such Thing As “masc Privilege” Or “straight-passing Privilege”?

BussyPhilipps

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Dear fellow gays,

I’m gay and I have a naturally somewhat high-pitched, effeminate voice. I hate my voice. Most people can tell I’m gay as soon as I open my mouth. I could never convincingly stay in the closet even if I wanted to. I could never be a public figure and not have most people know that I’m gay. That’s not an option for me and other fem gays. People have guessed that I’m gay since I was in middle and high school.

Masculine, straight-passing gays, on the other hand, have the option of whether they want to disclose their sexuality. They can stay in the closet during certain situations in which it’s beneficial (such as at a job or among straight strangers). Isn’t this a privilege?

I can think of quite a few occasions where it would have been beneficial to me if I had been able to pass for straight. On a couple of those occasions, I probably wouldn’t have been called a f*ggot or a homo by strangers.

Unfortunately, many masc, straight-passing gay men aren’t willing to acknowledge their privilege in comparison to fem gay men, in my experience. And that’s not even delving into how many masc gays discriminate against fem gays, which is another topic entirely. Do masc gay men not realize their privilege? Or are they just unwilling to acknowledge it?
 
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I think if you spend a lot of time looking at your perceived losses, you will fail to see what you actually have.

In other words, anyone can finger point and say, "Look at what they have and what I don't." It is often the basis for perceived injustices. The fact of the matter is, it is often envy, jealously, and/or insecurity on the part of the individual.

It isn't up to society to fix that person's perception; that is the job of a therapist.
 

BussyPhilipps

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I think if you spend a lot of time looking at your perceived losses, you will fail to see what you actually have.

In other words, anyone can finger point and say, "Look at what they have and what I don't." It is often the basis for perceived injustices. The fact of the matter is, it is often envy, jealously, and/or insecurity on the part of the individual.

It isn't up to society to fix that person's perception; that is the job of a therapist.
So when Black people speak of “White privilege,” is that just a “perceived injustice” then? I’m not saying “masc or straight-passing privilege” is on the same level as “White privilege,” but I think it does exist. I’ve noticed that you’re very dismissive of other people’s complaints.
 

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BussyPhilipps

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jaybee0560

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So when Black people speak of “White privilege,” is that just a “perceived injustice” then? I’m not saying “masc or straight-passing privilege” is on the same level as “White privilege,” but I think it does exist. I’ve noticed that you’re very dismissive of other people’s complaints.
Yeah he is - pretty sure he got one of my posts deleted in another thread on this board cos I disagreed with him and apparently, am not gay enuff to post. Go figure
Given there remains a backdrop of homophobia in society - being able to "pass for straight" does have its advantages and you could figure those advantages as being privilege.
 
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So when Black people speak of “White privilege,” is that just a “perceived injustice” then? I’m not saying “masc or straight-passing privilege” is on the same level as “White privilege,” but I think it does exist. I’ve noticed that you’re very dismissive of other people’s complaints.
When you say "other people", let's just hit that nail on the head and say you. Yes, you generally do make absurd posts. If you want, I can provide links to several other people who have given feedback of your outlandish statements. As well, I can supply your disproportionately aggressive and overly defensive retorts.

So, it isn't that I'm "very dismissive of other people’s complaints"; it's that your posts in particular are quite abnormal, and stem from utter nonsense.
 

malakos

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I think before I can respond to this you'll need to explain the following:

1) What precisely do you mean by "privilege"? Does this differ from privileges in the ordinary sense, i.e. entitlements granted to individuals in recognition of their merits, and if so, what is the difference?
2) You seem to be assigning some special significance to "straight-passing privilege". What's that about?
3) What does it mean to "acknowledge privilege"? Why are you concerned with whether one does so or not?
 
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deleted10088221

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I mean I think privilege/advantages exists across almost every social class. At the same time, I don’t think that this idea of straight-passing privilege (which very much does exist) should make just normal straight passing lgbt+ folks who don’t weaponize their “passing” into the enemy.
 

jaybee0560

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I think before I can respond to this you'll need to explain the following:

1) What precisely do you mean by "privilege"? Does this differ from privileges in the ordinary sense, i.e. entitlements granted to individuals in recognition of their merits, and if so, what is the difference?
2) You seem to be assigning some special significance to "straight-passing privilege". What's that about?
3) What does it mean to "acknowledge privilege"? Why are you concerned with whether one does so or not?

Without wanting to speak for the OP .. My understanding of his post is that he is using privilege in the same way its applied to White privilege. It doesn't mean you get a gift basket whenever you walk into a store or pay less taxes. It simply means that you do not suffer the same societal barriers that exist for other people because of existing systemic structures.
So - if we accept that racism still exists to some level and a non-white and a white man go for the same job with the same qualifications, in a number of circumstances, the white bloke will win out more often simply because at some level in some material way, systemic racism will play more of a part in giving the white folks advantages that the non-white guy wont.

We know homophobia is still alive and well and to some level, still presents a barrier to people who present as gay (whether that be accurate and assumption or the result of declaring it) - being able to pass as straight and chose your moment to come out, in this landscape, has obvious advantages and that advantage would describe your privilege.

He's not assigning any special significance to Straight passing privilege, he is just asking for thoughts on whether people consider this to be a real thing or not.
Asking whether people acknowledge this or not is not the same as expressing concern that they do. He is simply asking the question .. in the same way you could ask do white men acknowledge their privilege
 

Metrodude

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Sure, I’ll agree that gay guys who are conventionally masculine have certain social advantages that more effeminate gay men don’t. I’ll also agree that conventionally-masculine gay men shouldn’t be so judgmental of effeminate men. I’m truly sorry you’ve experienced discrimination in the gay community. That’s not cool at all. As someone who falls somewhere in the middle between masc and fem, it’s always a hard pass when I see phrases on dating profiles like “no fems” or “masc guys only.” I am who I am and and I don’t want to have to self-censor myself to please someone else.

That having been said, I’m not entirely sure I understand what you think acknowledging privilege would look like. If you mean that you want other gay men to acknowledge that people in the community can be awful to each other and that we need to be more accepting, I’m totally on-board with that. What I’m *not* on-board with is using privilege as a weapon to coerce other people’s behavior, as in “Paul won’t go out with me because he has straight-acting privilege” or “Paul didn’t talk to me at the party last night. He needs to check his privilege.” I’ve heard people say things like that bedore, and it’s really annoying. Paul gets to make choices for himself, and those choices might have nothing to do with being fem. Maybe he said “no” to the date because the other guy smelled bad; maybe he didn’t say “hi” at the party because he was having an important conversation with his boss the entire time.

Just my $.02.
 
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deleted1074483

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for my two cents worth!! I think there is some truth to this assertion. That said a guy who passes as straight in one situation may not in another. So I'm a professional guy and wear a suit at work and even in the Covid world wear at least a shirt and tie when i'm on video calls when working from home. Probably 80% of the time people make assumptions about my sexuality based on this outer appearance generally that i'm straight (and i've worked with some people who simply refused to accept or believe i could be gay). Out with work colleagues and changed into casual gear and just chatting over a pint its probably more 50/50 or 60/40 people do guess my sexuality.
I don't think i change 'who' i am in either context, but because of the clothes i wear the view of others about me does change.

I've also been called names out in the street and faced violence (thankfully not often).

I also know many very straight guys who are a touch effeminate or camp with higher voices who also get questioned about their sexuality, so very clearly there are assumptions made about people by how they 'present' (in all the various ways).

I'm not sure we can change that people are curious (I'll be kind), but where it becomes a serious issue is when it does affect someone's life like being called named, beaten up or not getting jobs because of it. I think only by us 'non straight' people are all open and people see the huge 'range' of people out there and with education will this end.

But 'we' also need to be a bit careful about making assumptions about others too and i'm sure there are many times that simply being male, white, straight acting/passing does not automatically give one 'privilege'? None of us know the challenges that another person faces, so i think in the end it all just comes down to respecting each other as individuals and unique human beings.
 

zetac

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I hate the word "privilege". Merriam-Webster defines is as "a right or immunity granted as a peculiar benefit, advantage, or favor"

Gays/straights/masc-presenting gays do not have "privileges" according to this definition. They might have advantages/disadvantages, though.

It's an important distinction, in my view, because "privilege" smacks of victim-mentality, whereas "advantages" acknowledges that, at the end of the day, we're never going to be equal, no matter many laws are passed.

As Bill Burr said, "we're all eating a shit sandwich, it's just some of us have slightly less shit on it than others."
 

Beanie

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Absolutely, you only have to look at the dating apps for men asking for “masc for masc” will tel you that, it’s just toxic masculinity but you’re basically telling the world “I fuck men but I’m totally straight bro!” Must be absolutely exhausting.
 

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i'm fairly masc and i think there is some unspoken advantage to not being obviously gay. i mean how many high profile people are there in the world (politicians/ceos/news hosts etc) who sound/appear gay? Even of those who are out of the closet, not many sound gay, for example Apple CEO Tim Cook.
Having said that, if you aren't obviously gay then there is always the question of whether you think those around you will accept it if you come out to them. If you are just so totally gay that everyone knows it when they meet you and you are getting on with them, then you can be pretty confident that they are accepting. Not saying that is a great benefit to fem guys, but it could be something they hadn't thought of.