Double Standards surrounding sexuality and boundaries

Smallteaplant

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Why do straight people get the privilege to disregard bisexuals and trans people?

People will argue that I’m enforcing heteronormativity by using them as a standard. However, since societies are centered around heterosexuality, why not use them as the standard? Reproduction is the rule of nature thus societies will naturally centered around that.

This thread is not to be bash bisexuals or trans people, but I am tired of the hypocrisy. Straight women will say that they support the lgbt community, but will exclude trans men, men who been with trans women, and bisexuals. Straight men or men who want to be with straight women will hide their affairs that straight women find unsavory.

I know I made countless posts and threads on this subject. I’m not upset that gay sex workers are having with whomever they want. Or bisexual marrying women.

But why are gay men forced to be inclusive when straight people aren’t? I find it frustrating when people state that gay men should do better or be more accepting when it comes to trans men and bisexual men, but no one goes after straight men.

Again, I don’t care what people do. But when gay men put up boundaries to protect ourselves, we’re expected to lower them for other non-heterosexual, non-cisgender groups. It makes it feel like gay is just a label for anything that it non heterosexual now.

Again, people should be able to do what they want. However, can we at least acknowledge that people and groups have the right to define their own boundaries.

If you want to destroy boundaries, why don’t you go for straight people? The majority of straight people will do anything to maintain their status.
 
Maybe ask this in the Ask a Gay Man section?

Well, I don’t want to just as gay men. I think the issue has some many components. Like why aren’t straight men upfront about their attraction to trans women? Why are straight women uncomfortable with bisexual men or men that have been with trans women?

Why do i as a gay man feel the need to compete with straight people for status and privileges?
 
Well, I don’t want to just as gay men. I think the issue has some many components. Like why aren’t straight men upfront about their attraction to trans women? Why are straight women uncomfortable with bisexual men or men that have been with trans women?

Why do i as a gay man feel the need to compete with straight people for status and privileges?
Have you ever cruised..? Hookup up with guys on an app? I run across ALL walks of life looking to suck, fuck, and stroke with others not in profile identity. Ex: "Straight Curious", "Married Discreet", "Gay", and combinations of these. All want to suck, fuck, or stroke with another guy.
 
You do this strange thing where you generalise the experiences of straight people, suggesting they are all inherently privileged and intolerant, yet you still default to viewing them as aspirational.

It’s difficult to stomach the notion that someone can justify prejudice by pointing to the prejudice of others and saying, “Yeah, I want that.” If you’ve reflected and decided it’s worth investigating something —those you deem “privileged” haven’t —then you face a dilemma: either align your behaviour with your values or leave things as they are.

Another’s actions do not compromise your agency to decide how you want to behave. It’s your choice.

The core issue with your argument is your repeated reliance on heteronormativity as a justification for your shit views. Framing heterosexuality as inherently “good” or the default sexuality and using this as a basis to moralise and critique sexual identity, implicitly undermines the experiences of gay and bisexual individuals. This reflects unresolved internal conflict and diminishes your credibility.

Let’s assume reproduction is the sole purpose of sex, and society is based on that premise (this is not my view). Why, then, should you, as a gay man, even get to identify with your sexuality? Taken to its logical conclusion, this stance invalidates your existence, your identity as a gay man, and any rights you hold. By your own definition, you would provide no value to the heterosexual agenda and be deemed irrelevant.

Smallteaplant, I do feel sorry for you this is not meant to sound patronising. It seems as though you view your sexuality as somehow wrong or contrary to “natural law,” but it isn’t.

You’ve claimed that heteronormativity “will win” in another post (a deeply problematic stance) because it serves a reproductive purpose. If reproduction truly defined existence, the incidence of gay individuals would likely approach zero. The reality is far more nuanced sexuality is not solely selected for evolutionarily, and there is no direct causal link between sexuality and reproduction. Using such a framework to model human sexuality is not only reductive but deeply flawed, ignoring the complexity of lived experiences.

It almost seems as if you see heterosexuality as a reified, transcendent concept. You attempt to co-opt this position to moralise, assuming it grants you a higher ethical authority simply because it aligns with the most observable phenomenon in the natural world regarding reproduction. This is misguided. The idea that nature is inherently ethical is deeply flawed—stand outside in the cold or risk contracting malaria, and you’ll see that nature is indifferent to morality. There are many instances where henous heterosexual activities, including acts of coercion or assault, could be qualified as “within the bounds of natural reproduction,” yet they are morally reprehensible. Your perspective ignores the critical role of human agency, morality, and our ability to make conscious, informed choices. To conflate “natural” with “good” is to misunderstand the complexity of ethics and human behaviour.

I understand that you’re asking why straight people have certain privileges, but underlying that question, I think, is a subconscious assumption that morality is locked behind a group to which you feel you lack access. Pandering to straight optics in a bid for acceptance will only make access it any easier.

I would encourage you to focus on building an ethical framework that is truly your own one that isn’t dictated solely by societal norms or inherited roles. This will empower you to know yourself more as an autonomous individual, capable of navigating group dynamics with agency, and allow you to fully embrace your identity without compromise and be able to better express it.
 
Well, I don’t want to just as gay men. I think the issue has some many components. Like why aren’t straight men upfront about their attraction to trans women?
I think some to many bi-men that lean straight have a tough time dealing with the bidentity.

Why are straight women uncomfortable with bisexual men or men that have been with trans women?
Uncomfortable in terms of those men as partners? That’s their prerogative. My wife, and several exes explain(ed) that it’s simply a turn-off for them. Seems obvious why.

If they are uncomfortable with the existence of bisexual men, and express that, then they’re just assholes.
 
You do this strange thing where you generalise the experiences of straight people, suggesting they are all inherently privileged and intolerant, yet you still default to viewing them as aspirational.

It’s difficult to stomach the notion that someone can justify prejudice by pointing to the prejudice of others and saying, “Yeah, I want that.” If you’ve reflected and decided it’s worth investigating something —those you deem “privileged” haven’t —then you face a dilemma: either align your behaviour with your values or leave things as they are.

Another’s actions do not compromise your agency to decide how you want to behave. It’s your choice.

The core issue with your argument is your repeated reliance on heteronormativity as a justification for your shit views. Framing heterosexuality as inherently “good” or the default sexuality and using this as a basis to moralise and critique sexual identity, implicitly undermines the experiences of gay and bisexual individuals. This reflects unresolved internal conflict and diminishes your credibility.

Let’s assume reproduction is the sole purpose of sex, and society is based on that premise (this is not my view). Why, then, should you, as a gay man, even get to identify with your sexuality? Taken to its logical conclusion, this stance invalidates your existence, your identity as a gay man, and any rights you hold. By your own definition, you would provide no value to the heterosexual agenda and be deemed irrelevant.

Smallteaplant, I do feel sorry for you this is not meant to sound patronising. It seems as though you view your sexuality as somehow wrong or contrary to “natural law,” but it isn’t.

You’ve claimed that heteronormativity “will win” in another post (a deeply problematic stance) because it serves a reproductive purpose. If reproduction truly defined existence, the incidence of gay individuals would likely approach zero. The reality is far more nuanced sexuality is not solely selected for evolutionarily, and there is no direct causal link between sexuality and reproduction. Using such a framework to model human sexuality is not only reductive but deeply flawed, ignoring the complexity of lived experiences.

It almost seems as if you see heterosexuality as a reified, transcendent concept. You attempt to co-opt this position to moralise, assuming it grants you a higher ethical authority simply because it aligns with the most observable phenomenon in the natural world regarding reproduction. This is misguided. The idea that nature is inherently ethical is deeply flawed—stand outside in the cold or risk contracting malaria, and you’ll see that nature is indifferent to morality. There are many instances where henous heterosexual activities, including acts of coercion or assault, could be qualified as “within the bounds of natural reproduction,” yet they are morally reprehensible. Your perspective ignores the critical role of human agency, morality, and our ability to make conscious, informed choices. To conflate “natural” with “good” is to misunderstand the complexity of ethics and human behaviour.

I understand that you’re asking why straight people have certain privileges, but underlying that question, I think, is a subconscious assumption that morality is locked behind a group to which you feel you lack access. Pandering to straight optics in a bid for acceptance will only make access it any easier.

I would encourage you to focus on building an ethical framework that is truly your own one that isn’t dictated solely by societal norms or inherited roles. This will empower you to know yourself more as an autonomous individual, capable of navigating group dynamics with agency, and allow you to fully embrace your identity without compromise and be able to better express it.

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I don't think that heterosexuality is inherently better than homosexuality. I just want the privilege of being blind to the nature of sexuality, to live ignorant of it. I mention straight men because the majority of good straight men shield women from the nature of sexuality and their sexuality. They’re afforded an innocence that I think I crave.

I would argue that asexuality is the superior form of sexuality. In my opinion, sexuality outside of reproductive sex tends to have this evilness(I mean this in an amoral way) to it. The only benefit of heterosexuality is reproductive sex. Reproductive sex is the cornerstone of society. Outside of reproductive sex, heterosexuality has “diminishing returns”.

I gladly acknowledge that sex is more than about reproduction. Sex has so many meanings besides reproduction. It can be any combination of love-seeking, union, acceptance, mastery, reparation, compulsion, addiction, trauma repair, revenge, hatred, and transcendence. That’s the evilness of sex. It’s beautiful but horrifying beauty that I would gladly be blind to it.

Ironically, I can identify with my sexuality as I have particular desires that I choose to partake in. However, I can say that it’s a luxury or privilege to be gay just as it is when straight people decide to have forms of sex that they find desirable.

I have a nuanced view of my sexuality. I don’t think it’s wrong. It probably doesn’t follow “natural law”, but I don’t mind that fact.
 
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This thread is not to be bash bisexuals or trans people, but I am tired of the hypocrisy. Straight women will say that they support the lgbt community, but will exclude trans men, men who been with trans women, and bisexuals. Straight men or men who want to be with straight women will hide their affairs that straight women find unsavory.
The totality of your post demands a lot, but this particular part seems really simple to solve, or at least to ascertain whom has accountability in forming the construct. Not I assign blame per se, but......if straight women were to not exclude trans men, men whom had been with trans women, or bisexual men, that would have little to no negative impact on their access to straight men, but straight men definitely have negative access to straight women should they even approach anything that looks like homo-bi-transeroticism. Only one gender is really being hypocritical here, the other is simply trying to retain a place in the sexual marketplace.
 
The totality of your post demands a lot, but this particular part seems really simple to solve, or at least to ascertain whom has accountability in forming the construct. Not I assign blame per se, but......if straight women were to not exclude trans men, men whom had been with trans women, or bisexual men, that would have little to no negative impact on their access to straight men, but straight men definitely have negative access to straight women should they even approach anything that looks like homo-bi-transeroticism. Only one gender is really being hypocritical here, the other is simply trying to retain a place in the sexual marketplace.

I agree with you.

@Urien Penny for your thoughts?
 
OP, in your original post, you said that gay is now a universal term to identify anything that isn’t heterosexual. That’s always been the case and it’s not a recent development. If you can’t or won’t see how gay men & women fall under the same umbrella as bisexual men & women, and trans/non binary folks, I don’t know what to tell you. If you don’t naturally feel a shared experience or struggle with bisexuals or transgender people, then I think you lack compassion and empathy. No sexual minority has a favored status in the eyes of bigots who seek to condemn people because of their sexuality or gender identity. What you are arguing would be like a tan/light brown racial minority saying that because the are closer to being white in color that they should receive better treatment by white racists, and thereby ignoring the plight of other darker minorities. Putting up boundaries against other people who you are most likely aligned with to curry favor with the masses is never a winning strategy.
 
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I don't think that heterosexuality is inherently better than homosexuality. I just want the privilege of being blind to the nature of sexuality, to live ignorant of it. I mention straight men because the majority of good straight men shield women from the nature of sexuality and their sexuality. They’re afforded an innocence that I think I crave.

I would argue that asexuality is the superior form of sexuality. In my opinion, sexuality outside of reproductive sex tends to have this evilness(I mean this in an amoral way) to it. The only benefit of heterosexuality is reproductive sex. Reproductive sex is the cornerstone of society. Outside of reproductive sex, heterosexuality has “diminishing returns”.

I gladly acknowledge that sex is more than about reproduction. Sex has so many meanings besides reproduction. It can be any combination of love-seeking, union, acceptance, mastery, reparation, compulsion, addiction, trauma repair, revenge, hatred, and transcendence. That’s the evilness of sex. It’s beautiful but horrifying beauty that I would gladly be blind to it.

Ironically, I can identify with my sexuality as I have particular desires that I choose to partake in. However, I can say that it’s a luxury or privilege to be gay just as it is when straight people decide to have forms of sex that they find desirable.

I have a nuanced view of my sexuality. I don’t think it’s wrong. It probably doesn’t follow “natural law”, but I don’t mind that fact.

Your desire to be blind to the nature of your own sexuality is not the same as innocence, nor does it make you “innocent.” The act of sexual contact, within the parameters of consent, is ethically ambiguous. You cannot account for the mentality and psychology of the people involved. However, I’d hope that most times, in circles of civility, it ferments something meaningful.

Your sentiment, which echoes a paternalistic Christian view of sexuality (where the chaste are seen as virtuous), conflates innocence—the elated, guilt-free state of practiced awareness where someone understands the dynamics at play in any given framework, and through self-reflection, understands how to operate ethically—with ignorance, a blindness to those dynamics and how to interface with them.

Additionally, you conflate two distinct types of innocence. Is it the kind that comes from practiced awareness, through refinement of thought, as described above, or the kind that arises from a freedom of energy, unburdened by biases or anxieties about what lies outside one’s control?

It seems you’re frustrated by not having access to the latter while disregarding the opportunity to cultivate the former. I do not deny that there is privilege here, but in light of the opportunity, you attempt to address the injustice by leaving your view or modus operandi as it is, and aligning yourself in a tokenistic way with a fantasy of life that isn’t your own. You disregard the call to explore or deepen your understanding of your own sexuality, and by doing so, reinforce the very limitations you seek to escape.

Moreover, you seem frustrated that your conclusions don’t align with your original expectations. That’s literally the essence of exploration. You will inevitably confront uncertainty, and that’s how we discover something beyond what we already “know.” Since this is about your sexuality something deeply personal I’d posit it still remains “unknown.”

This circles back to my previous post. If you’ve reflected and decided it’s worth investigating something, then you face a dilemma: either align your behaviour with your values or leave things as they are.


To be blunt, this post feels like you’re trying to extract sympathy for neglecting to explore something that is introspective in nature. I get that you feel uneasy, perhaps even overwhelmed, but the deeper truth is that, in terms of ethics, neglecting to reflect or change is still a choice. It would be easier to engage with you if you were genuinely struggling with trans identities or debating the limitations of an eternalistic Godhead providing insight into social behavioural dynamics. But instead, it seems you’re trying to galvanise others with the same righteous indignation you over-identify with, to drown out the only logical inference from your ramblings, which is a call for quiet self-reflection.

Look, you can bury your head in the sand, but don’t appeal for sympathy when there’s sand in your eyes.

To address your arguments:

You repeatedly conflate non-reproductive sexuality, particularly gay sexuality, with something inherently “evil.” This belief inevitably shapes how you perceive the world. By internalising these biases, you reinforce them through the company you keep and the perspectives you adopt. While your posts come across as reasoned, there’s an underlying theme of wanting sympathy for neglecting the reflective work needed to understand your sexuality. However, neglecting parts of yourself for the sake of “heterodoxy” is not a neutral choice it carries its own ethical consequences.

In the same vein, your discomfort with sex seems rooted less in its inherent qualities or quintessence and more in an outdated ideology. The framing of masculinity as order and virtue, while femininity represents chaos or danger, echoes strong Christian influences. This mindset seeks to tame what cannot be tamed. There was a concerted effort to stamp out paganism, natural influences, etc. This stunted us, rather than challenging us to find ways to productively interface with life’s unpredictability.

The notion of a “good straight man” shielding women from the nature of sexuality is also deeply flawed. Sexuality does not belong to men; it exists independently of gender, and women have every right to explore it. Ironically, your reluctance to examine your sexuality mirrors societal pressures that often discourage women from expressing their desires. Both reflect a shared fear of self-understanding and the freedom that comes from grappling with what feels difficult.

Your co-opted idea of “diminishing returns” further reduces relationships to mechanical acts of sexual gratification. Sex is not only mediated via dopamine circuitry, and if I’m just going to correct you on biological terms, oxytocin—which is also released during an act of love—is a positive feedback mechanism: more love = more love. But outside of that your outlook strips relationships of their emotional, romantic, and platonic richness. You externalise fulfilment to heterosexual reproduction, dismissing the value of trust, intimacy, and shared purpose connections that form the real cornerstone of human society, far more so than reproduction alone.

To claim that heterosexual reproduction is the foundation of society conflates biological necessity with cultural and emotional meaning. If we wanted to identify true “building blocks,” we might point to physical laws like gravity or entropy, but these are not the frameworks by which we lead meaningful lives. Reducing relationships and sexuality to biology alone ignores the emotional depth and complexity that give human life its significance.

It’s also contradictory to list sex’s meanings, as per your post (union, transcendence, trauma repair) only to declare it “evil.” Sure, we exist in multitudes, but what you seem to describe is sex’s capacity to confront us with life’s wildness and unpredictability, much like birth, death, or any intense brush with existence, and then dismiss it because it’s not a transactional process from which you can extract exactly what you desire. From what I can divine, it’s your desperation to be “right.”

Navigating these experiences is undeniably challenging, but they are also opportunities to embrace life fully. Instead of fearing them, many find exhilaration a reminder of being alive. To be honest, this sounds super prescriptive—I shouldn’t have to explain this.

Also, repressing parts of yourself isn’t supportive of your self-declared view that your understanding of your sexuality is nuanced. There’s a difference between repressing sexuality and transcending it. Repression denies and suppresses, while transcendence acknowledges and integrates. If you’re willing to confront these complexities with honesty and compassion, you may discover a deeper understanding of yourself. Sex isn’t something to deny or control; it’s something to explore, understand, and celebrate. Dismissing it as “evil” shuts down opportunities for growth, intimacy, and personal freedom. While you say your view of sexuality is nuanced, it reads more like avoidance. If you choose celibacy one day, that’s a valid choice, but you owe it to yourself to explore friendships, community, and connection before arriving at such a conclusion.

Ultimately, the challenge lies in acknowledging life’s wildness and complexity and finding meaning within it not rejecting it outright. That’s just the death drive. I encourage you to reflect more deeply and honestly on your experiences. Please explore community, what feels right to you, truly, and engage with others in real life meaningfully. I know gay rights are likely not where they should be, whether you live, but even experiences of community in terms of hobbies, sports, etc., will help you depolarise a view that is inherently at odds with your lived reality.
 
OP, in your original post, you said that gay is now a universal term to identify anything that isn’t heterosexual. That’s always been the case and it’s not a recent development. If you can’t or won’t see how gay men & women fall under the same umbrella as bisexual men & women, and trans/non binary folks, I don’t know what to tell you. If you don’t naturally feel a shared experience or struggle with bisexuals or transgender people, then I think you lack compassion and empathy. No sexual minority has a favored status in the eyes of bigots who seek to condemn people because of their sexuality or gender identity. What you are arguing would be like a tan/light brown racial minority saying that because the are closer to being white in color that they should receive better treatment by white racists, and thereby ignoring the plight of other darker minorities. Putting up boundaries against other people who you are most likely aligned with to curry favor with the masses is never a winning strategy.


I don’t care for bigots. I lean towards homo separatism.

Im black so I’m familiar with racial politics and colorism. However, you forget that not everyone is obsessed with white people or want to assimilate into white mainstream culture.

My Asian friends tend to mostly associate with other Asians. They live in their ethnic enclaves. Shop the majority of time at Asian-owed businesses. The only time that they interact with other Asians is when they go to work. Same with Muslims in Dearborn, Michigan.
 
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Straight women will say that they support the lgbt community, but will exclude trans men, men who been with trans women, and bisexuals.
I agree. I think that is a matter of the amount of choice. If you can choose between different men, they choose the men that are only attracted to women, so they have more control.

But that is nothing exclusively to straight women. That is a general negative human behaviour.

Straight men or men who want to be with straight women will hide their affairs that straight women find unsavory.
I also agree on that. I think people hide it because it gives them more priveleges. If you live under autoritarian leadership or if the society is autoritarian, you also hide your opinion if it disbenefits you. That is comparable.


But why are gay men forced to be inclusive when straight people aren’t? I find it frustrating when people state that gay men should do better or be more accepting when it comes to trans men and bisexual men, but no one goes after straight men.
I dont know about that. I think everybody should have equal laws. Even if they are these unwritten laws that everybody has to obey to be accepted by society.

In my opinion, sexuality outside of reproductive sex tends to have this evilness(I mean this in an amoral way) to it. The only benefit of heterosexuality is reproductive sex. Reproductive sex is the cornerstone of society.
I think Plato said something like that. I read about it because somebody else on the forum mentioned him.

Im black so I’m familiar with racial politics and colorism. However, you forget that not everyone is obsessed with white people or want to assimilate into white mainstream culture.

My Asian friends tend to mostly associate with other Asians. They live in their ethnic enclaves. Shop the majority of time at Asian-owed businesses. The only time that they interact with other Asians is when they go to work. Same with Muslims in Dearborn, Michigan.

Im black so I’m familiar with racial politics and colorism. However, you forget that not everyone is obsessed with white people or want to assimilate into white mainstream culture.
I dont think races have a culture. That is more of an American thinking process.

If you look into every culture in the world they all claim to be inspired by the divine and the culture is not invented by a race. At least I dont know any culture that claims otherwise.

My Asian friends tend to mostly associate with other Asians. They live in their ethnic enclaves. Shop the majority of time at Asian-owed businesses. The only time that they interact with other Asians is when they go to work. Same with Muslims in Dearborn, Michigan.
They have probably similar interests, because they are from the same country or similar countries. If you bond through religion you usually have only the choice to bond with people of your own race.

I also dont see that black Americans have a different culture than the rest of Americans. Nomatter if they are Asians or Muslims.

The difference is bigger between countries in my opinion.
 
They have probably similar interests, because they are from the same country or similar countries. If you bond through religion you usually have only the choice to bond with people of your own race.

I also dont see that black Americans have a different culture than the rest of Americans. Nomatter if they are Asians or Muslims.

The difference is bigger between countries in my opinion.
Asians tend to be less religious. In the United States, churches are separated by race. There are Black churches, White churches, and Asian churches.