Homonormativity /Heteronormativity vs Queer

[Smallteaplant]

This is more of an intellectual spin off thread of "Openly Gay Men Trying And Experimenting With Str8/Bi/Ftm Porn! Some For The Very First Time."

The LGBT community is probably going to suffer a big blowback, which would lead to a fracturing of the community. One of the reasons for this fracture is that a good percentage of homosexuals want the image of respectability or what scholars call homonormativity. Just as heterosexual men and especially women, police the boundary of what is appropriate behavior for heterosexuality. Homosexual males and females will want to do the same.

I know that this is a porn site. However, I hope that people can read the writing on the wall when it comes to politics, culture, human relations and sex. People are probably going to become more sex negative as a reaction to queer politics and the mainstreaming of trans people. There seems to be a limit to sexual freedom.

I blame straight people. But these guys still need to stop what they are doing and probably get some mental health therapy.. I say blame straight people because we've been shamed and hated all our lives and had to mentally try to deal with that and not being able to feel and be "normal" since childhood. And when I say "normal" I mean things like being able to date guys, bringing then home to mom or work functions, talk about it with friends. Hiding in fear for our lives is not "normal" but it is very normal in a gay person's life. Anyhow, all that PTSD inducing hate in our lives has some gay people fearing ANYTHING that threatens gay life. I know, cuz I've progressed from that thinking over the years(and still fight with it in my head and actually here on this thread). These guys are almost radicalized now in their thinking and taking it out on trans people as well. It's just sick. Look, I don't like that guys having sex with men lie and say they are straight, it hurts them and the gay community, but we all should still be able to discuss it here! I'm still frustrated about justsboys and how they were infiltrated with this radicalized BS. That thread was a great thread! It helped me actually discover things about myself. Hopefully LPSG will stay a safe place to continue with these discussions.

Sex and sexuality isn't solely about sex. Sex is about power, especially in environments where sexuality and human relations are controlled and monitored by the state and community. I agree that people like him are somewhat zealous in the protection of homosexuality. So are most people, especially straight women. Straight women unless she has something to gain would never date or marry a bisexual male.

 

[halcyondays]

Sex and sexuality isn't solely about sex. Sex is about power, especially in environments where sexuality and human relations are controlled and monitored by the state and community.

IMO this isn't true. Power is an end unto itself. It controls whatever it wants to control--or at least whatever it can. Sexual behavior is one.

To be clear I'm talking about political power controlling social and cultural norms regarding sex. Around the world politics & law--governments--are dominated by religious morality.

Almost everyone in every culture is raised in the religion of their parents. I was. Like most I had no choice in the matter. With love and affection my beloved parents attempted to indoctrinate me in their faith. It didn't work.

I have long accepted that indoctrination is a fancy word for brainwashing. Problem is it closes minds. By adulthood few can or even want to think outside the box of sexual norms in which they were raised--and are stuck there for the rest of their lives.

I think the LGBT community is already fractured and will continue to do so. You're right: it's breaking along lines protecting hard won social/political acceptance as normal. Mainstream. Those battles themselves are not over. I think we've all experienced or at least are familiar with the policing you mention.

That said I look forward to the political acceptance of trans & non-binary individuals of any age and the protection of their rights under law. I don't care how many letters are added to LGBTQ+. Call it infinity if you like.

My parents failed to indoctrinate me in their religion. They did not fail to indoctrinate me in love.

 

[Smallteaplant]

IMO this isn't true. Power is an end unto itself. It controls whatever it wants to control--or at least whatever it can. Sexual behavior is one.

To be clear I'm talking about political power controlling social and cultural norms regarding sex. Around the world politics & law--governments--are dominated by religious morality.

Almost everyone in every culture is raised in the religion of their parents. I was. Like most I had no choice in the matter. With love and affection my beloved parents attempted to indoctrinate me in their faith. It didn't work.

I have long accepted that indoctrination is a fancy word for brainwashing. Problem is it closes minds. By adulthood few can or even want to think outside the box of sexual norms in which they were raised--and are stuck there for the rest of their lives.

I think the LGBT community is already fractured and will continue to do so. You're right: it's breaking along lines protecting hard won social/political acceptance as normal. Mainstream. Those battles themselves are not over. I think we've all experienced or at least are familiar with the policing you mention.

That said I look forward to the political acceptance of trans & non-binary individuals of any age and the protection of their rights under law. I don't care how many letters are added to LGBTQ+. Call it infinity if you like.

My parents failed to indoctrinate me in their religion. They did not fail to indoctrinate me in love.

Thanks for responding. I feel like there is still more to talk about when it comes to LGBT rights.
It’s easy to blame religion for the sexual mores. I don’t think that religion is completely to blame. For one thing, the state has just as much interest in policing people’s sexual affairs than religious institutions.

Sex is primarily for procreation and heterosexual in nature. So the state has just as much interest in it because it makes and enforce matters such as education and property inheritance.

As a homosexual, I’m jealous that heterosexual, cis people get guard sexual mores and boundaries when it comes to sex in the Anglosphere. While gay is use as a catch all for all those who are not completely heterosexual. This is why I think that it’s good that bisexuals are being recognized as separate from gays.

 

[PeachyDistance]

Thanks for responding. I feel like there is still more to talk about when it comes to LGBT rights.
It’s easy to blame religion for the sexual mores. I don’t think that religion is completely to blame. For one thing, the state has just as much interest in policing people’s sexual affairs than religious institutions.

Sex is primarily for procreation and heterosexual in nature. So the state has just as much interest in it because it makes and enforce matters such as education and property inheritance.

As a homosexual, I’m jealous that heterosexual, cis people get guard sexual mores and boundaries when it comes to sex in the Anglosphere. While gay is use as a catch all for all those who are not completely heterosexual. This is why I think that it’s good that bisexuals are being recognized as separate from gays.

That’s why I get frustrated by the individuals who call themselves gay/homosexuals who have sex with the opposite sex and still claim to be homosexual. IMO I feel like it’s okay to have labels. We’ve fought for the right for our label as homosexuals. There was one moment in time when homosexuality was outlawed and our people were harmed or even worse killed. Being labeled gay became a fight for acceptance and pride.

Now we have the fight for the label of bisexuality and yet there are men (especially in the porn industry) who’s trying their best to blur the lines and what that does is a juxtaposition. It’s not productive, it gives naysayers that venom to start the claims of “see we were right, gay isn’t real. “You can change them.” “Gay is just a phase.” “I’ll turn them straight.” If you’re having sex with men and women, be free and represent the bisexuality. It’s almost comical when you here some say, hetero-curious or homo-curious. You’re not curious, you’re urging or experiencing opposite sex interactions. Nothing wrong with that but call it as it is and don’t hide behind the gay label.

If we’re trying our best to represent the labels and get the recognition of these sexualities, how in the world can we do so if we’ve got these people out here saying they don’t believe in labels. It just shudders homosexuality, bisexuality etc awareness.

Even more frustrating is when these same individuals then call gays or lesbians (homosexuals) a phobic. We’re not scared of people who aren’t homosexuals, we’re scared of our homosexuality becoming the odd ball or even worse erased. Some of the rhetoric that I hear from “fluid” folks and even the trans community are beyond sickening. Telling gays and lesbians that we’re close minded or bigoted if we don’t want to have sex with them.

Gays being told that not wanting to have sex with a trans male because they have a vagina is bigoted and misogynist. Lesbians being ridiculed because they refuse to conform to the pressures of men who want to try to rope them into group interactions or trans women who claim that they’re wrong for not wanting sexual interactions with them. That’s not fair. You want our exceptance by ostracizing our sexual desires.

I’m for inclusivity. With that being said, In the newest revelations of B & T awareness, let’s not loose the sights and platforms of the L & G.

 

[Smallteaplant]

That’s why I get frustrated by the individuals who call themselves gay/homosexuals who have sex with the opposite sex and still claim to be homosexual. IMO I feel like it’s okay to have labels. We’ve fought for the right for our label as homosexuals. There was one moment in time when homosexuality was outlawed and our people were harmed or even worse killed. Being labeled gay became a fight for acceptance and pride.

Now we have the fight for the label of bisexuality and yet there are men (especially in the porn industry) who’s trying their best to blur the lines and what that does is a juxtaposition. It’s not productive, it gives naysayers that venom to start the claims of “see we were right, gay isn’t real. “You can change them.” “Gay is just a phase.” “I’ll turn them straight.” If you’re having sex with men and women, be free and represent the bisexuality. It’s almost comical when you here some say, hetero-curious or homo-curious. You’re not curious, you’re urging or experiencing opposite sex interactions. Nothing wrong with that but call it as it is and don’t hide behind the gay label.

If we’re trying our best to represent the labels and get the recognition of these sexualities, how in the world can we do so if we’ve got these people out here saying they don’t believe in labels. It just shudders homosexuality, bisexuality etc awareness.

Even more frustrating is when these same individuals then call gays or lesbians (homosexuals) a phobic. We’re not scared of people who aren’t homosexuals, we’re scared of our homosexuality becoming the odd ball or even worse erased. Some of the rhetoric that I hear from “fluid” folks and even the trans community are beyond sickening. Telling gays and lesbians that we’re close minded or bigoted if we don’t want to have sex with them.

Gays being told that not wanting to have sex with a trans male because they have a vagina is bigoted and misogynist. Lesbians being ridiculed because they refuse to conform to the pressures of men who want to try to rope them into group interactions or trans women who claim that they’re wrong for not wanting sexual interactions with them. That’s not fair. You want our exceptance by ostracizing our sexual desires.

I’m for inclusivity. With that being said, In the newest revelations of B & T awareness, let’s not loose the sights and platforms of the L & G.

To be fair, I think that there is a general push for universal pansexuality. Straight women on Twitter were harassed for saying that she wouldn’t date a bisexual men. There is also a counterpart for the Gays experimenting thread. It’s just not as popular.

 

[halcyondays]

It’s easy to blame religion for the sexual mores. I don’t think that religion is completely to blame. For one thing, the state has just as much interest in policing people’s sexual affairs than religious institutions.

Yes but the foundation of state (legal) interest in policing sex is religious even in governments which claim to separate church and state.

A prime example of this is marriage. Originally a religious sacrament limited to heterosexual couples, governments which separated church and state forgot to delete the word and concept from civil law. Result? The long, continuing battle to legalize same-sex marriage.

Words matter. It would have been easier if the sacramental religious term "marriage" had been dropped when church and state separated. Those who continue to define marriage as between a man and a woman do so on moral grounds which come directly from religion.

 

[deleted2604161]

What I have an issue with is gay men calling me Heteronormative because I want to have a monogamous relationship.

 

[deleted5199391]

Any community can have a problem with normativity.
Imho, almost any community has It.
In this particular time, expecially the so called progressist area.
Just look at how many rules, languages, codes of conduct, labels.
Old society was heteronormative (monoteistic religions cough), but was not "straight people". All sexual spectrum was basically oppressed, and some of those straight were probably closeted.
Gay or bi people (like me) aren't better then straight. When they have power they do the same stuffs.

 

[AceWilde]

What I have an issue with is gay men calling me Heteronormative because I want to have a monogamous relationship.

I agree that this isn't really a fair thing to do. While monogamy is part of heteronormativity, there's more to it than that, and it certainly doesn't suggest that you're being heteronormative.

Heteronormative behavior would be more like trying to force monogamy onto other people and telling people who are single/open/poly that their relationships aren't as good as yours because monogamy is the only true relationship, or something like that.

I think it's important to know what we are calling out when we talk about heteronormative behavior because we don't want to swing all the way into the other direction. If we make monogamous people feel like shit we aren't any better than the people we are talking about in this thread. It's important to remember that all queer relationships are valid. Otherwise we are just creating a new set of normative behaviors and that's no good to anyone.

 

[AceWilde]

One thing that bothers me about the respectability and heteronormative thing is that it always comes with a subtext (either stated or not) that if we all just behave and perform as if we are exactly like straight people and meet all the same normative milestones they do, that the people who think we are perverts destined to go to hell will come around and like us because we are just like them. And the thing is... That has never worked. Every push in the gay rights movement based around that ideology has failed. Just because we get married and have kids doesn't mean these people are going to stop hating us and trying to take away our rights. In fact most of them get even more angry at the idea of gays adopting or, god forbid, getting a surrogate.

And the fact that a lot of the current movement to be just like the straights involves throwing our trans siblings under the bus really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. These are some of the most vulnerable people in our community and some people would gladly see them stripped of their rights and left to suffer just to be accepted by straight people. It's gross.

 

[Smallteaplant]

And the fact that a lot of the current movement to be just like the straights involves throwing our trans siblings under the bus really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. These are some of the most vulnerable people in our community and some people would gladly see them stripped of their rights and left to suffer just to be accepted by straight people. It's gross.

But does the gay men really owe the trans community anything? Also, don’t mention Stonewall. Stonewall was overrated and overhyped. Besides, in the early days of gay activism, white middle class homosexuals tended to exclude the gender nonconforming individuals.

 

[faintster]

here's a story so my friend and i have been friends for a really long time and one night we were really drunk we ended up at his place and one thing led to another and we slept together. up until this happened nothing and i mean nothing gave me the impression that he was gay, bi, questioning, nothing. but it happened again so then i started to wonder. so, i made the mistake of mentioning to a friend and when he found i from this friend, he hit me up and asked me if i told anyone about what occurred between us? he said if i did he didn't think we could be friends anymore and i was so afraid to lose his friendship, so denied that i told anyone anything. I think he believed me because we continued to have this secret "relationship". my point is that he's so scared of people finding out about his private life that he rather dismisses me as a friend than admit it. Me being the stupid person that i am i choose to stay quiet about it because i'm stupid and value our friendship. why does it feel like "straight" men hold the power over gay men when it comes to their secret? I've noticed this before when i slept with a coworker of mine and instead of admitting that things happened between us he didn't want anything to do with me. why is it that these guys can do this but still act like it never happened

 

[dutchman-90]

here's a story so my friend and i have been friends for a really long time and one night we were really drunk we ended up at his place and one thing led to another and we slept together. up until this happened nothing and i mean nothing gave me the impression that he was gay, bi, questioning, nothing. but it happened again so then i started to wonder. so, i made the mistake of mentioning to a friend and when he found i from this friend, he hit me up and asked me if i told anyone about what occurred between us? he said if i did he didn't think we could be friends anymore and i was so afraid to lose his friendship, so denied that i told anyone anything. I think he believed me because we continued to have this secret "relationship". my point is that he's so scared of people finding out about his private life that he rather dismisses me as a friend than admit it. Me being the stupid person that i am i choose to stay quiet about it because i'm stupid and value our friendship. why does it feel like "straight" men hold the power over gay men when it comes to their secret? I've noticed this before when i slept with a coworker of mine and instead of admitting that things happened between us he didn't want anything to do with me. why is it that these guys can do this but still act like it never happened

Wait. So if I understood you correctly, you think that you're stupid for not outing your friend??

 

[Jeffer2580]

Wait. So if I understood you correctly, you think that you're stupid for not outing your friend??

No I think he said he's stupid for having a secret sexual relationship with someone who's not ready to do the needful, someone with internalized homophobia

 

[AceWilde]

But does the gay men really owe the trans community anything? Also, don’t mention Stonewall. Stonewall was overrated and overhyped. Besides, in the early days of gay activism, white middle class homosexuals tended to exclude the gender nonconforming individuals.

I guess I'm a little confused by this comment, but I'll do my best to reply to all your points.

1. Should gay men only support and protect minority groups that we "owe" something to? Even if we accept your assertion (which I do not truly accept) that trans people have done nothing for the rest of the community, that doesn't give us a right to invalidate them and throw them under the bus in our fight for equality. No one can be equal until everyone is equal, that's just how it works.

2. I don't understand why you think Stonewall is not nearly as important a moment for gay rights as it is, but OK, I'll bite: Trans people and other gender nonconforming people (like drag queens) were pivotal in spreading health information during the early days of the AIDS epidemic when straights were more than willing to just let gay men die alone in a hospital bed. Because these people were seen as community leaders through their activism and performance art, they were often tasked with spreading information on keeping safe and wearing condoms to their local LGBTQ community. I'd argue that they were just as valuable to gay men at the time as the lesbians who would sit with the AIDS patients so they didn't die alone and in pain.

3. You bringing up the ways that white middle class gays ignored and actively shunned gender nonconforming individuals is actually very pertinent to the heteronormative behaviors we are talking about in this thread (though it seems like you're bringing it up as a positive?). The history of gay men throwing trans people under the bus to promote their own similarities to the straights is long and unfortunate. Hell, the reason why the Stonewall was even targeted (though I know you don't find the event important) as opposed to the more "respectable" gay bars was because it was the bar in NYC for all the people not wanted in the middle class white gay bars. That's why there were so many trans and nonconforming people there that night, that was their space. They weren't allowed in regular gay bars because they brought too much police scrutiny. If you think that was a good thing and that we should go back to shunning trans people in order to avoid added scrutiny by the straights in power, then you and I are not going to agree. And I'm not expecting us to, based on your questions, but I figured I'd give a shot at answering them anyway.

 

[dreambridger]

Okay very interesting subject matter, with a lot of different points to address. I can only give you my personal opinion, how (post)modern ideology regarding gender and sexuality have affected me and my identity as a homosexual and how I relate to others and to the gay community. I don't speak with any authority on the subject matter other than how it pertains to my personal feelings.

Yes, I will admit that this recent strain of queer culture and of trans culture has made me feel very alienated as a gay man. I do feel that the people preaching these new mindsets regarding queerness have forgotten the origins of the LGBT civil rights movement. I feel, often, that there is a strong and very toxic underlying element of misandry in this new queer/trans movement of the digital age. And misandry, the hatred of men and masculinity, definitively includes the hatred of gay men, since gay men are men, and misandry affects gay men as much as it would affect any man. And, yes, the alienation I feel is double-edged, since I can't live in the straight world, but also won't be accepted in this new queer world. Though I love and desire men, I have never felt belonging in the mainstream LGBT community during my life in the millennial generation (and I am a millennial)

Yes, I feel that the new queer/trans politics are sex negative and encouraging of censorship (censorship being an enemy of civil rights in my eyes). While I don't care about the morphing of pronouns at all, that's all fine by me, I was very, very upset when I read the terms "front hole" and "back hole" on a medical form when I was getting tested in Seattle. Not only are these terms condescending and infantilizing, they promote genital phobia. and as a student of psychoanalysis, I know that the promotion of genital phobia will invariably lead to the most harmful neuroses. I cannot even began to fathom that even if you are trans that you would be offended by the terms "vagina" and "anus". I was disgusted by this baby-talk being used on a MEDICAL FORM. I feel like that was the moment that I knew that I stood completely against the direction that queer politics are going. If they can't use the proper terms for genitals where proper terms are required, they are simply promoting the hatred of sex itself. It is deeply disturbed.

and while I hate to bring too much pop culture into this debate, I suppose we're all ready there, and I'll admit I was very disconcerted by the backlash against Dave Chappelle's brilliant special "The Closer", which not only did I feel is the best special he's ever done in his entire career, I felt that it specifically addressed me as a gay man who needs the refreshment of honesty. I genuinely feel that special was written as a gift to the LGBT community, not as an attack against it. I'm suspicious that those who have so brutally criticized that special never watched it. There's a lot of herd mentality in the queer censors of today, they read only snippets of articles, say and think what they're supposed to say and think according to their politics, without ever truly investigating and coming to their own conclusion.

okay, onto the other points.

I do not care if a straight person occasionally sleeps with the same sex and still calls themselves straight. I do not care if a gay person occasionally sleeps with the opposite sex and still calls themselves gay. I am thoroughly a gay man, but I do occasionally find a woman with a sex-positive attitude to be attractive, and in the perfect and rare circumstance, I might choose to have fun with that woman. It does not change the fact that I much prefer men and that it is my dream someday to have a strong love bond with a man and perhaps even call him my husband. It would simply be misleading to call myself bisexual.

I do not blame all trans people or all bisexual people for these emerging politics that we're discussing. I love my trans friends and my bi friends, since I choose as friends grounded individuals who are capable of fair discussion and who haven't lost their sense of humor. The politically-motivated ones, the "culture-hackers", they're a small fraction of trans and bisexuals, but they are definitely a big problem that will throw off any chance of balance in our culture.

I think what's most upsetting about this new political movement is not actually the opinions themselves, but the flat out unwillingness to discuss those opinions or address valid criticisms of them. It's very fascistic, a stamping out and eradicating of any idea that opposes their own, a widespread silencing of those who are coming from another place, in fact a total invalidating of anyone coming from another place regarding their sexual identity and lifestyle. They claim to seek validation, yet they invalidate everything that isn't them. They claim to 'give a voice' to the marginalized, yet they silence others. They are simply socially dangerous and they are my enemy as far I'm an concerned. They are an enemy to my individuality and freedom to exercise my lifestyle as a gay man. They are an enemy to free-thinking, to honest and open discussion, and, yes, I'll say that they are an enemy to sexual liberation and to mental health.

Oh, I almost forgot to add that I completely disagree with the assertion that sex has anything to do with power. It does not. Sex is about pleasure and only about pleasure. Seduction is about power, rape is about power, but sex is about mutual pleasure, and if it's not about that, then it's either not sex, or it's just bad sex.

 

[Smallteaplant]

Okay very interesting subject matter, with a lot of different points to address. I can only give you my personal opinion, how (post)modern ideology regarding gender and sexuality have affected me and my identity as a homosexual and how I relate to others and to the gay community. I don't speak with any authority on the subject matter other than how it pertains to my personal feelings.

Yes, I will admit that this recent strain of queer culture and of trans culture has made me feel very alienated as a gay man. I do feel that the people preaching these new mindsets regarding queerness have forgotten the origins of the LGBT civil rights movement. I feel, often, that there is a strong and very toxic underlying element of misandry in this new queer/trans movement of the digital age. And misandry, the hatred of men and masculinity, definitively includes the hatred of gay men, since gay men are men, and misandry affects gay men as much as it would affect any man. And, yes, the alienation I feel is double-edged, since I can't live in the straight world, but also won't be accepted in this new queer world. Though I love and desire men, I have never felt belonging in the mainstream LGBT community during my life in the millennial generation (and I am a millennial)

Yes, I feel that the new queer/trans politics are sex negative and encouraging of censorship (censorship being an enemy of civil rights in my eyes). While I don't care about the morphing of pronouns at all, that's all fine by me, I was very, very upset when I read the terms "front hole" and "back hole" on a medical form when I was getting tested in Seattle. Not only are these terms condescending and infantilizing, they promote genital phobia. and as a student of psychoanalysis, I know that the promotion of genital phobia will invariably lead to the most harmful neuroses. I cannot even began to fathom that even if you are trans that you would be offended by the terms "vagina" and "anus". I was disgusted by this baby-talk being used on a MEDICAL FORM. I feel like that was the moment that I knew that I stood completely against the direction that queer politics are going. If they can't use the proper terms for genitals where proper terms are required, they are simply promoting the hatred of sex itself. It is deeply disturbed.

and while I hate to bring too much pop culture into this debate, I suppose we're all ready there, and I'll admit I was very disconcerted by the backlash against Dave Chappelle's brilliant special "The Closer", which not only did I feel is the best special he's ever done in his entire career, I felt that it specifically addressed me as a gay man who needs the refreshment of honesty. I genuinely feel that special was written as a gift to the LGBT community, not as an attack against it. I'm suspicious that those who have so brutally criticized that special never watched it. There's a lot of herd mentality in the queer censors of today, they read only snippets of articles, say and think what they're supposed to say and think according to their politics, without ever truly investigating and coming to their own conclusion.

okay, onto the other points.

I do not care if a straight person occasionally sleeps with the same sex and still calls themselves straight. I do not care if a gay person occasionally sleeps with the opposite sex and still calls themselves gay. I am thoroughly a gay man, but I do occasionally find a woman with a sex-positive attitude to be attractive, and in the perfect and rare circumstance, I might choose to have fun with that woman. It does not change the fact that I much prefer men and that it is my dream someday to have a strong love bond with a man and perhaps even call him my husband. It would simply be misleading to call myself bisexual.

I do not blame all trans people or all bisexual people for these emerging politics that we're discussing. I love my trans friends and my bi friends, since I choose as friends grounded individuals who are capable of fair discussion and who haven't lost their sense of humor. The politically-motivated ones, the "culture-hackers", they're a small fraction of trans and bisexuals, but they are definitely a big problem that will throw off any chance of balance in our culture.

I think what's most upsetting about this new political movement is not actually the opinions themselves, but the flat out unwillingness to discuss those opinions or address valid criticisms of them. It's very fascistic, a stamping out and eradicating of any idea that opposes their own, a widespread silencing of those who are coming from another place, in fact a total invalidating of anyone coming from another place regarding their sexual identity and lifestyle. They claim to seek validation, yet they invalidate everything that isn't them. They claim to 'give a voice' to the marginalized, yet they silence others. They are simply socially dangerous and they are my enemy as far I'm an concerned. They are an enemy to my individuality and freedom to exercise my lifestyle as a gay man. They are an enemy to free-thinking, to honest and open discussion, and, yes, I'll say that they are an enemy to sexual liberation and to mental health.

Oh, I almost forgot to add that I completely disagree with the assertion that sex has anything to do with power. It does not. Sex is about pleasure and only about pleasure. Seduction is about power, rape is about power, but sex is about mutual pleasure, and if it's not about that, then it's either not sex, or it's just bad sex.

For a student of a psychoanalyst, you miss the mark on sex. Sex is carries tons of cultural baggage. To say that sex is about pleasure is to hand weaver what society says about sex(gender roles) and sex itself.

My

 

[dreambridger]

For a student of a psychoanalyst, you miss the mark on sex. Sex is carries tons of cultural baggage. To say that sex is about pleasure is to hand weaver what society says about sex(gender roles) and sex itself.

My

you're post here doesn't really explain anything and also doesn't really make any sense to me. and appears to be incomplete?

The statement that the drive towards pleasure is the root of the natural sex drive is not only completely in line with psychoanalysis, it's in fact the foundation upon which psychoanalysis is based.

 

[Smallteaplant]

you're post here doesn't really explain anything and also doesn't really make any sense to me. and appears to be incomplete?

The statement that the drive towards pleasure is the root of the natural sex drive is not only completely in line with psychoanalysis, it's in fact the foundation upon which psychoanalysis is based.

Sorry, I was at busy. My point is that sex comes with cultural baggage attached. So does sexual identity. For example, I doubt that a homosexual male that experience conversion therapy would experience a negative emotion when a supposedly gay male sleeps with a female. He will feel that it's just confirming the belief that being gay is a choice or feelings of his own inadequacy.
Right now, there a bunch of homosexuals on Twitter that are policing Onlyfan creators because of the trauma that they experience. That's not healthy behavior .
However, it points to a set of issues that the LGBT community failed to address as a whole. Due to the nature of reality and society, homosexuals will never be equal to heterosexuals. Since it was never address, it could lead to more frustrated people.

 

[deleted5199391]

Okay very interesting subject matter, with a lot of different points to address. I can only give you my personal opinion, how (post)modern ideology regarding gender and sexuality have affected me and my identity as a homosexual and how I relate to others and to the gay community. I don't speak with any authority on the subject matter other than how it pertains to my personal feelings.

Yes, I will admit that this recent strain of queer culture and of trans culture has made me feel very alienated as a gay man. I do feel that the people preaching these new mindsets regarding queerness have forgotten the origins of the LGBT civil rights movement. I feel, often, that there is a strong and very toxic underlying element of misandry in this new queer/trans movement of the digital age. And misandry, the hatred of men and masculinity, definitively includes the hatred of gay men, since gay men are men, and misandry affects gay men as much as it would affect any man. And, yes, the alienation I feel is double-edged, since I can't live in the straight world, but also won't be accepted in this new queer world. Though I love and desire men, I have never felt belonging in the mainstream LGBT community during my life in the millennial generation (and I am a millennial)

Yes, I feel that the new queer/trans politics are sex negative and encouraging of censorship (censorship being an enemy of civil rights in my eyes). While I don't care about the morphing of pronouns at all, that's all fine by me, I was very, very upset when I read the terms "front hole" and "back hole" on a medical form when I was getting tested in Seattle. Not only are these terms condescending and infantilizing, they promote genital phobia. and as a student of psychoanalysis, I know that the promotion of genital phobia will invariably lead to the most harmful neuroses. I cannot even began to fathom that even if you are trans that you would be offended by the terms "vagina" and "anus". I was disgusted by this baby-talk being used on a MEDICAL FORM. I feel like that was the moment that I knew that I stood completely against the direction that queer politics are going. If they can't use the proper terms for genitals where proper terms are required, they are simply promoting the hatred of sex itself. It is deeply disturbed.

and while I hate to bring too much pop culture into this debate, I suppose we're all ready there, and I'll admit I was very disconcerted by the backlash against Dave Chappelle's brilliant special "The Closer", which not only did I feel is the best special he's ever done in his entire career, I felt that it specifically addressed me as a gay man who needs the refreshment of honesty. I genuinely feel that special was written as a gift to the LGBT community, not as an attack against it. I'm suspicious that those who have so brutally criticized that special never watched it. There's a lot of herd mentality in the queer censors of today, they read only snippets of articles, say and think what they're supposed to say and think according to their politics, without ever truly investigating and coming to their own conclusion.

okay, onto the other points.

I do not care if a straight person occasionally sleeps with the same sex and still calls themselves straight. I do not care if a gay person occasionally sleeps with the opposite sex and still calls themselves gay. I am thoroughly a gay man, but I do occasionally find a woman with a sex-positive attitude to be attractive, and in the perfect and rare circumstance, I might choose to have fun with that woman. It does not change the fact that I much prefer men and that it is my dream someday to have a strong love bond with a man and perhaps even call him my husband. It would simply be misleading to call myself bisexual.

I do not blame all trans people or all bisexual people for these emerging politics that we're discussing. I love my trans friends and my bi friends, since I choose as friends grounded individuals who are capable of fair discussion and who haven't lost their sense of humor. The politically-motivated ones, the "culture-hackers", they're a small fraction of trans and bisexuals, but they are definitely a big problem that will throw off any chance of balance in our culture.

I think what's most upsetting about this new political movement is not actually the opinions themselves, but the flat out unwillingness to discuss those opinions or address valid criticisms of them. It's very fascistic, a stamping out and eradicating of any idea that opposes their own, a widespread silencing of those who are coming from another place, in fact a total invalidating of anyone coming from another place regarding their sexual identity and lifestyle. They claim to seek validation, yet they invalidate everything that isn't them. They claim to 'give a voice' to the marginalized, yet they silence others. They are simply socially dangerous and they are my enemy as far I'm an concerned. They are an enemy to my individuality and freedom to exercise my lifestyle as a gay man. They are an enemy to free-thinking, to honest and open discussion, and, yes, I'll say that they are an enemy to sexual liberation and to mental health.

Oh, I almost forgot to add that I completely disagree with the assertion that sex has anything to do with power. It does not. Sex is about pleasure and only about pleasure. Seduction is about power, rape is about power, but sex is about mutual pleasure, and if it's not about that, then it's either not sex, or it's just bad sex.

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