Homophobia

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miniver_cheevy: my proudest job.

i actually produced a public service announcement featuring u.s. representative barney frank urging people to support e.n.d.a., the employment non-discrimination act, to protect gay and lesbians in the workplace.

it played at gay and lesbian film festivals and on public access tv.

i know the figures about this. in 40 states of the union it is perfectly legal to fire somebody because he or she is gay or lesbian. and they have no legal recourse.

most straight people don't believe this. they think for some reason that gay people have special protections, and can't be fired because of their sexual orientation.

but except in ten states and the district of columbia this is not true. some metropolitan areas also are protected new york city for example, and some states offer protection for state employees:

ma, ct, ri, nh, vt, mn, ca, md, nj, dc -- i think this list is correct, but i might be wrong. me recently took away the right, and md recently added it.
 
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Icarus213: This isn't to discredit efforts to stop mindless discrimination (which does exist), I just hate to think I would have to rely on special laws to make up for a lack of sensitivity to other people, which is an easy trap for homosexuals to fall into.  Love people and the world won't be out to get you.  I promise.   8)    
 

benderten2001

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[quote author=jay_too link=board=relationships;num=1049507919;start=15#19 date=04/07/03 at 13:07:33]

"...bendertender..

i guess that apologies are in order.  i did not mean to attack christians..."

[/quote]


Jay,

Apologies are NOT in order....at least as far as I am concerned. I did NOT feel "attacked" . --You were speaking what you felt and that's what makes this forum a nice place to be.

You have mentioned "ideas" (or casually were alluding to them) about "why" people wind up with different sexual orientations. --I won't venture a guess.
Nor could I.

We may never know for sure.

And, WHY does it really have to matter anyway?

Jay, I too can't understand the attacks and personal assaults toward others of different sexual persuasions; making these individuals miserable and compounding the issues and concerns in their lives. Like you, I also suspect there must be some deep-seated emotional hurts, inhibitions, or even far worse "fueling" this unjustified behavior towards others. It's such a shame.

Our concern as men (and as women for those among our membership) should be to find our way in life to be happy with ourselves and then be able to relate that to others by way of encouraging them. Even by itself, that's quite a challenge to begin with!

I'm trying to learn the skill, (the practiced art if you will), to "tune out" ANY outside forces that tend to influence my self esteem and the real inner me. No one should EVER mess with that part of me...ever.

I don't appreciate intimidation and disparaging remarks hurled toward me and I don't want it said that I was guilty of such behavior towards others.

The worn-out phrase "live and let live" no longer seems to personally "cut it" for me. I wish for myself (and others) to live life to its fullest....touch others with kindness when and where I can, and end my earth's journey with as few regrets as possible. I'm not saying here that it's easy...far from it many days!

--There's no need (nor is there time, really) for hate and judgmental attitudes towards others. What DOES it really gain for one to be that way?

Life is far too precious.

I've learned that already.

And, I'm so grateful for that wisdom, too.

It took many difficult lessons in life to bring me to that new-found knowledge.
 

txquis

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The prejudice i've encountered is not from people
who KNOW i'm gay, but from those who DONT know
it and start in on the "fags"...
and this happens again and again and again.

Usually at work or with a group i dont know well,
obviously.

I call these people "closet gay bashers', and i've
encountered them in all places i've lived:
south, midwest and NYC.

The ones who would never do it to a gay persons face,
but who do it when they think
everyone in the room is straight.

But, among my friends, I am accepted...
in fact my two best friends are male and straight,
and they are not threatened,
nor have our friendships ever, ever been sexual.
 

B_DoubleMeatWhopper

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It is funny to hear people talk about 'fags' when they don't realise a gay man is present. One guy was going on and on about 'those fuckin' fags' around a group of my friends. All my straight buds know I'm gay and have no problem with it, but this loser didn't know me and didn't know that I was a member of the 'Lavendar Brotherhood', shall we say. My friends kept giving me looks, just knowing that I was going to say something. I did.

I: Why do you hate gay men?

He: I don't no fuckin' cocksucker comin' on to me.

I: Why would he? I haven't tried to hit on you.

He: But you ain't no queer.

I: Sure I am. As a three dollar bill. But loud-mouthed, bigoted assholes don't turn me on, and my other gay friends would agree, so you really don't have anything to worry about, do you?

My friends were laughing their asses off as the guy got red-faced and left.
 
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Late_Bloomer: A tramp is a slut in America. A tramp is a homeless person in England.

But a homeless person isn't necessarily a slut in either country, nor a slut necessarily homeless, although he could be.
 
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Icarus213: DMW- That's a good point. I see that a lot, too. My favorite comment to hear is that the guy doesn't want gay people trying to rape him. I usually say, "Well, it happens a lot, you know. Gay dudes rape men all the time. You see it on the news every night..." ???

Usually, though, those people have never had friends who were gay, so they generalize about a group they haven't been exposed to. I have only had one negative experience with someone who was a friend before I told him. And he was sort of a wierd guy to begin with. Ah well.
 
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miniver_cheevy: :D "I am gay, but because so many gay/lesbian people make their lifestyle an identity/political issue, it sometimes can make people more uncomfortable rather than less."

Icarus, I'm glad that you and the likes of you can be comfortable while other less fortunate people get fired or stymied in their careers. Or others get simply threatened or even beat up.

Gay Republicans and people like Andrew Sullivan drive me up a tree, because they wouldn't be where they are, shouting off their mouths in support of the rightwing extremists, without the work, dedication, and vision of the civil rights movement. Women, people of color, disabled people, and gay people wouldn't enjoy the freedoms that we now do without the generations that suffered and worked tirelessly before us.

And as far as leather daddies marching in the street, and lesbians baring their breasts in public or whatever -- you can see a lot more lewd heterosexual activity during prime time on the major networks. So come on, dude.

Civil rights legislations has been necessary in this country and will continue to be until the racist, bigoted among us -- a surprising large majority, and suddenly on the upsurge, it seems -- are dead and gone -- or until they experience an epiphany. I'll pray for that, and continue to write my letters to my leaders, and support the right, progressive causes.

Equal rights are not special rights. Gay certainly do not have equal rights. As I explained in an earlier post, you can be fired without recourse simply for being gay in 40 of the 50 states.

Yeah, it's easy to be nonpolitical and climb under a rock and criticize other, more vocal, more political members of your minority group. As far as I'm concerned, you can stay under your rock just fine. It's your right to be on the wrong side of the coin, dude.

Bill in Boston
 

B_DoubleMeatWhopper

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[quote author=miniver_cheevy link=board=relationships;num=1049507919;start=24#27 date=04/08/03 at 08:26:03] :D  "I am gay, but because so many gay/lesbian people make their lifestyle an identity/political issue, it sometimes can make people more uncomfortable rather than less."

Icarus, I'm glad that you and the likes of you can be comfortable while other less fortunate people get fired or stymied in their careers.  Or others get simply threatened or even beat up.

Gay Republicans and people like Andrew Sullivan drive me up a tree, because they wouldn't be where they are, shouting off their mouths in support of the rightwing extremists, without the work, dedication, and vision of the civil rights movement.  Women, people of color, disabled people, and gay people wouldn't enjoy the freedoms that we now do without the generations that suffered and worked tirelessly before us.  
[/quote]

So let me get get this straight (if you'll pardon the expression): If we shout belligerently about homophobia, rub something that the populace tends to find distasteful in their faces and flaunt the most negative and extremely stereotypes in public to make sure everyone notices, that'll be sufficient to quell all vestiges of homophobia and hate-induce violence will cease? Oh yeah, that makes sense. M. Cheevy, confirming people's worst opinions of us is not, IMHO, the way to enoble our cause. My aim is to show by example that I am not part of some shadowy, unwholesome subculture, but simply a college man whose sexual tastes are different than those of my heterosexual counterpart. My approach does tend to work, at least to some extent. And of course there are those close-minded fag-bashing yahoos; all the leather-harnessed bears, ballerina drag queens and topless lesbians on the 10:00 news aren't going to change their views. But then again, why does anyone think they would?
 
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richie: I suffered at the hands of homophobes when I was a teenager. For several years I was physically and verbally abused - beaten up, called queer, fag and so on. Ironically, I was/am 100% straight. I was shy and crap with girls and the bullies seized on this.

I don't think they actually believed I was gay so I guess it wasn't true homophobia. It was just stupid cruel teenage bullying. I was an easy target because of my lack of success with girls.

This bullying had a bad effect in me well into adulthood, my confidence was wrecked for years and only recently have I begun to come to terms it.

richie
 
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Icarus213: Miniver-

I think you mistook my position because you envision gays as a homogenous minority group in need of political advocacy.  I really don't see it that way.  Like DMW said, I don't see political victories as the key to tolerance.  They enforce laws (that sometimes are needed), but they don't change attitudes.

Successful gay conservatives (and there are a lot of them, I have found) are not where they are because civil rights laws keep homophobes from silencing them.  They are where they are because their sexuality is a minor part of who they are, and the more important parts of them like their intellect and initiative won them respect from others first before they made an issue of their sexual orientation.
 
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miniver_cheevy: listen, i just am trying to make you understand that the civil rights movement, which was successful in the 60's in helping pass the civil rights act, which protected people on the basis of race -- was a major milestone, a watershed, so to speak.

we are progressing, we are not a liberal society, we are a progressive one.

and a lot of people, the minorities that i mentioned, were subsequently protected under the wing of the civil rights act, and the similar civil rights act that followed. they were inspired, emboldened, and politicized to move forward and make progressive advancements -- and we are enjoying the fruits of their labors to this day.

i am thinking of the americans with disabilities act, for example, which is a really good example of good sound legislation, which has had an amazing impact for people that live with disability.

i mean, just to get homosexuality included in the Federal Hate Crimes Statistic Act (the major accomplishment for gays and lesbians in recent history, legislatively speaking) was major. now, the FBI is required to included statistics about gay bashing, whereas before it was not required. and subsequently crimes against gays, the most heinous kinds of crimes, were glossed over and not evwen recorded.

affirmative action, right to early term abortions, housing ownership for the lower and middle income population, recognition of same sex relationships (only on a state-to-state basis, though), rights of the disabled to housing, equal accomodation, and employment, etc., etc.

these are all an outgrowth of the work of african americans to try to carve an equal part of the american pie for themselves -- a long, and continuing struggle, i think we all would believe.

also, the civil rights movement has a lot to do with the struggle for women's rights. equality for women is resonsible also for a lot of what our progressive society has brought about.

as far as i am concerned, your cut is snide, dmv. while once or twice every year (at southern decadence in new orleans is the most obvious example) you get the leather daddies and bare-breasted lesbians (why should baring breasts be worse than baring dick? which seems to be happening a lot these days) -- acting out in the gay pride parades -- and the media focuses on them.

yes, i agree it is preverted (to see guys getting blown in the streets of san francisco or new orleans) and the right wing media is gonna find that stuff and grind it in our faces.

i am just saying it is hypocritical that the right wing media focuses on that aspect of the "gay life style" -- a term i hate -- and no, icarus, i am not part of a gay subculture that i can identify more easily with than you.

i am just a 9-5 working guy who goes home on the weekends and attends his parents church and takes care of his elderly parents.

there is much more obnoxious heterosexual sex and sexuality (and grind-in-your face gay sex on queer as folk on showtime too) -- avalable during prime time on the major networks.

**puritanical hair bristles at nape of neck**

arghhhh!

this is funny, the gay guys are here bashing each other -- when the thread is supposed to be about homophobia.
why cant'd you just agree with me, and acknowledge my experience instead of giving me these unkind cuts?
 
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balls: [quote author=richie link=board=relationships;num=1049507919;start=24#29 date=04/08/03 at 14:01:59]I suffered at the hands of homophobes when I was a teenager. For several years I was physically and verbally abused - beaten up, called queer, fag and so on. Ironically, I was/am 100% straight. I was shy and crap with girls and the bullies seized on this.

I don't think they actually believed I was gay so I guess it wasn't true homophobia. It was just stupid cruel teenage bullying. I was an easy target because of my lack of success with girls.

This bullying had a bad effect in me well into adulthood, my confidence was wrecked for years and only recently have I begun to come to terms it.

richie[/quote]
My teenage years are very similar to what you described. I tended to be a little more sensitive toward others and a little more artistic than the average teenager so a lot of kids thought I was gay. The abuse made growing up very difficult. The funny thing was I had three very straight and very macho guys come on to me at different times. I actually had to turn them away and let them know that, well, I am straight, but good luck to you. The teenage experience made me realize how many young men suffer from identity crisis.

By the way, Andrew Sullivan Rules!
 
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miniver_cheevy: listen, i'm too sensitive for all this, i'm outta here (for awhile). i'm sorry if i offended anybody. i get the feeling that you should never make dmv feel offended, and i'm scared about what he's gonna write.

i'm not good at communicating my feelings, and i tend to vamoose when the going gets rough. sorry dudes. i'm the big a-hole here and i apologize.

bye
 

txquis

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I was happy to read that i'm not the only one who
has been "unknowingly" gay bashed by people
who didnt know i was gay.

I have also known straight friends who
have been accused of being gay, just because
they are gentle and quiet.
:(
 
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Icarus213: Miniver-

I agree. Sounds like a good place to stop. No reason for people who should be friends to butt heads this hard, especially in a support group. I didn't (and I hope to think DMW feels the same) mean to stir up negative feelings or belittle things you have devoted lots of energy to.

Let's return to the matter at hand: people have value, and regardless of moral or political convictions, nothing should take precidence over the respect you show for others.

I appreciate the talks we've had on this site. You all rule. 8)

-Ica
 

B_DoubleMeatWhopper

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[quote author=Icarus213 link=board=relationships;num=1049507919;start=24#35 date=04/09/03 at 11:13:11](and I hope to think DMW feels the same) [/quote]

He does. So let's get back to the subject at hand: "A lot of heterosexual men are afaid of my big, gay cock!"
;D
 
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PowerDave: First, let me state that I'm gay. If you met me, you'd probably never know it.

Is it me or does anyone else here not like the term "homophopia"? Is it really a phobia to not like someone because they're gay? To turn the table, it's not. It's a choice. . .a choice that the perpetrator of hate has made for one reason or another, whether consciously or unconsciously. I'm no lexicologist, but perhaps there is a word better suited to this condition. Asshole comes to mind, but I don't wish to be rude.

In response (somewhat) to the Christian issue brought up during this thread, I think it's important we all realize that anyone who uses the Bible to thump homosexuals over the head and tell them they're going to hell, needs to do some research. There are only about 6 or 7 references to "homosexuality" in the Bible. The word "homosexual" was added by translators. The term "sodomite" originally meant only that you were from Sodom. Most of the acts going on in Sodom & Gommorah were heterosexual acts. What most Bible thumpers use as arrows for their quivers comes from Leviticus. There are many "laws" in Leviticus not practiced today, so why should the one about "homosexuality" be singled out? I mean, do any of you still sacrifice a bull every Sunday? Ladies, do you burn your sheets after your mentrual cycles each month? I could go on and on, but, I'll pause now for your reactions.

I'm rather new to this board and have really enjoyed the discourse.
 
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dolf: Where to start?
Recently I have found myself defending my right to have my own beliefs far too often- and it has not once been anybody who was gay who has given me grief! A short background- I was raised in a moderately Christian home, got away from it for quite some time and have recently returned. During that time I did quite a number of wrong and bad things (they had nothing to do with attacking anybody and lets leave it at that), but I always remembered that people are human.

I had always said that I did not like the idea of knowing gay men, and I would avoid them if possible but if I found out that anybody that I knew was gay I would try to work through MY issues. I realized that if it was not an issue getting to know him and if he did not push it on me then it was indeed my issue and not his. That day came and he was very understanding of my feelings as the topic had come up before. Just recently somebody here was complaining about “the ones who would never do it to a gay persons face, but who do it when they think everyone in the room is straight”- well I had always made my thoughts clear that while disagreeing with the lifestyle I still considered a gay man as a person- just one whose single choice made me uncomfortable.

I found that when talking about sex he would avoid the use of using the phrase “My boyfriend” or the likes. Now some on this board may think it unfair that he should do such a thing and that he should have “just been who he was” and if I could not deal with it- too bad. I’ll tell you now though that it made it easier to work through everything having him sensitive to my thoughts and feelings however irrational they may have been. I could hear about “the man” he was with and be fine with that before we both moved to different cities. I am grateful for the chance to have got to know him realizing how much he helped me grow. I still know a couple of gay men and one lesbian and none of them have issues with my disagreeing with the lifestyle and none confront me telling me how intolerant I am. One now tells me that it is simply because I can and do separate the person who I do WHOLLY accept from an action that I do not. In response they overlook what they perceive to be my faults and actions that they do not like and accept me completely for who I am.

I still do not agree with parades and politics as I still see them as somebody “pushing” an agenda on me. I do not agree with the ruling in B.C. that allows a book with a title similar to “Jan’s two moms” to be put into grade one classrooms. I do not like some of the proposed legislation That Svend Robenson has put forth.

One last thought about a recent event in Canadian politics before I wrap up my rambling. Recently MP Elsie Wayne wrapped up a rant in the House of Commons about same sex marriages and questioning “Why… they get dressed up as women of floats” by saying “If they are going to live together, they can go live together and shut up about it.” Scott Brison (an openly gay Consertive who was running for party leadership) wanted her to resign. I think she offended a number of people, but she is the only one out of 330 some odd representatives who said what many think- though a little more tact would have been preferred.

Mr. Brison’s response for his leadership campaign? “There is no room for closed minds (in this party.) The only thing that I will not tolerate is intolerance.” Roll that around and laugh at the loop as you realize that he will not tolerate his intolerance of them that are intolerant. But it’s statements like that where somebody presumes to tell me that I can not disagree with their position without being wrong for being intolerant that really irks me. Recently on this board it was said “Because so many gay/lesbian people make their lifestyle and identity/political issue, it sometimes can make people more uncomfortable rather than less.” How very true.