New Book Thinks Straight Men Who Fuck Men Are Not In Closet

bigboaster

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So again, no answer to my issues with either of the studies?

This isn't some dumb-ass point scoring competition - where this started was I made a number of assertions about bisexuality, my sexuality and the way it is viewed and mistreated, the vast majority of which you have not challenged.

Re: this particular point that "bisexuals are a tiny minority". I have shown that most recent UK-wide stats give the proportion of self-densified bisexual people as 0.9%. That comfortably fits my definition.

Moving on to the Gallup poll. We're still arguing over single percentage points. The US rate on increase in LGBT individuals is an extra 1% in 3 years to 5.6% in 2020, of which slightly over half now identify as bisexual. Nationally, that equates to around 3%, which still sounds like a tiny minority. This gives us a range of between 0.9-3% of self-identified people in two "progressive", predominantly white countries.

Much of what has been written in this thread perpetuates prejudice against bisexuals; all the guff about bi privilege, having your cake and eating it and pretty much all of the cited evidence. It is lazy and it is outdated.

It does not stand up.
number of assertions about bisexuality, my sexuality and the way it is viewed and mistreated, the vast majority of which you have not challenged.

I never challenged it because I never took issue with that sentiment existing? I conceded that there is prejudice towards bisexual people within the gay Community. I just said it wasn't fair to generalize the gay community as being more prejudiced than the hets. Something that you never provided evidence for btw beyond anecdotes.

I have shown that most recent UK-wide stats give the proportion of self-densified bisexual people as 0.9%. That comfortably fits my definition.

So cherry picking? Okay. It doesn't disprove the US numbers. As I've already said.

The US rate on increase in LGBT individuals is an extra 1% in 3 years to 5.6% in 2020, of which slightly over half now identify as bisexual.

You are fundamentally missing my original intention/point. Which is that there are more open bisexuals than gays per new polling data. That they are not a tiny minority compared to gays. Not that there are more bisexuals overall compared to the straight population. That would be silly.

Much of what has been written in this thread perpetuates prejudice against bisexuals; all the guff about bi privilege, having your cake and eating it and pretty much all of the cited evidence. It is lazy and it is outdated.

And much of that I never agreed with or supported. I don't support prejudice of any kind. I agreed that bi erasure and hatred absolutely exist in some of my earliest replies here. You are arguing with a straw opponent my friend
 
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DiamondJoe

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No one said you were wrong. It seems like your primed and ready for. Conflict that you aren’t going to find. It’s interesting that you’re an academic yet you seemed to lack the ability to read what I wrote critically!

So, let me try it again. Your perspective doesn’t supersede the perspectives of others here, even if you’re a bonafide historian. Other historians can surely offer commentary to refute or support what I and others have offered here today.

What I don’t understand is if you’re so learned and the perspectives given here are baseless, why entertain us at all? You certainly aren’t going to change anyone’s mind. Throwing out an unverifiable credential isn’t going to be sufficient to move the needle.

Even if it’s verified, your a single person, who likely aren’t a leader in your field. The way I see it, you can engage in a dialogue as a peer, or say nothing at all, or play the high and mighty card. The latter will prove fruitless. But hey, you do you.
Yeah... so find me some evidence beyond prejudice and ad hominem attacks and we have a debate...

?
 

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Just a side note: you can’t effectively say that your self-knowledge is definitive and then deny my own experience and self-knowledge. I mean, you can, but it’s self defeating. Also, I believe the phrase I used was “shit ton” and not “one.” lol

Of course - but much of the discussion is gay men telling bisexuals what they are.

Fewer assumptions, more acceptance.
 
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tjh1204

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Yeah... so find me some evidence beyond prejudice and ad hominem attacks and we have a debate...

?
I didn’t come here to debate.
number of assertions about bisexuality, my sexuality and the way it is viewed and mistreated, the vast majority of which you have not challenged.

I never challenged it because I never took issue with that sentiment existing? I conceded that there is prejudice towards bisexual people within the gay Community. I just said it wasn't fair to generalize the gay community as being more prejudiced than the hets. Something that you never provided evidence for btw beyond anecdotes.

I have shown that most recent UK-wide stats give the proportion of self-densified bisexual people as 0.9%. That comfortably fits my definition.

So cherry picking? Okay. It doesn't disprove the US numbers. As I've already said.

The US rate on increase in LGBT individuals is an extra 1% in 3 years to 5.6% in 2020, of which slightly over half now identify as bisexual.

You are fundamentally missing my original intention/point. Which is that there are more open bisexuals than gays per new polling data. That they are not a tiny minority compared to gays. Not that there are more bisexuals overall compared to the straight population. That would be silly.

Much of what has been written in this thread perpetuates prejudice against bisexuals; all the guff about bi privilege, having your cake and eating it and pretty much all of the cited evidence. It is lazy and it is outdated.

And much of that I never agreed with or supported. I don't support prejudice of any kind. I agreed that bi erasure and hatred absolutely exist in some of my earliest replies here. You are arguing with a straw opponent my friend
Don’t waste anymore of your energy man. He’s not even reading, let alone considering what we’ve said.

He’s nonsensical and in search of only information that confirms his story of victimization. There is no desire for understanding the mire bisexual men encounter from gay men. Also, he’s not even from America. So he won’t understand our cultural references. As millennials (big assumption), we will just continue to forge ahead. The generation ahead of us and the boomers will have to conform or go away quietly at some point lol. For now, he’s ignored.
 

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Of course - but much of the discussion is gay men telling bisexuals what they are.

And much of it is bisexuals telling gay men what they believe. lol

I’m half joking. Forcing identity on another person is a universal feature of prejudice. White people telling black people what racism is and isn’t. TERFs telling trans women what their gender is. Or, recently in my case, being told I’m bisexual because I’m attracted to trans men.

But, still—and maybe this is because it’s I’ve been subjected to it all my life—I think there’s a difference between prejudice that results in discrimination of a materially harmful kind and the sort that is socially exclusionary.

I would 100% say that denying a bisexual man a home or employment is morally corrupt. I would have a harder time saying that about a group of gay men not wanting to associate with bisexual men.

And I think that makes sense. We respect free association. We are tolerant of people choosing their own relationships, whatever their beliefs or motives.

I’m not sure what your goal is; but if it is, in essence, requiring gay men to accept bisexual men as one and the same with themselves, I think that might be inconsistent with principles you (possibly) hold that transcend sexuality or even a conception of fairness.

If it’s simply to have your identity acknowledged, that is something only you can do. Others really don’t enter the equation there.
 
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number of assertions about bisexuality, my sexuality and the way it is viewed and mistreated, the vast majority of which you have not challenged.

I never challenged it because I never took issue with that sentiment existing? I conceded that there is prejudice towards bisexual people within the gay Community. I just said it wasn't fair to generalize the gay community as being more prejudiced than the hets. Something that you never provided evidence for btw beyond anecdotes.

I have shown that most recent UK-wide stats give the proportion of self-densified bisexual people as 0.9%. That comfortably fits my definition.

So cherry picking? Okay. It doesn't disprove the US numbers. As I've already said.

The US rate on increase in LGBT individuals is an extra 1% in 3 years to 5.6% in 2020, of which slightly over half now identify as bisexual.

You are fundamentally missing my original intention/point. Which is that there are more open bisexuals than gays per new polling data. That they are not a tiny minority compared to gays. Not that there are more bisexuals overall compared to the straight population. That would be silly.

And I return to it; I made a number of assertions earlier, the majority of which you have not challenged but you have become fixated on this point, as if the entire debate hangs off it.

When I made the point that bisexuals are a tiny minority I did so with a) the UK in mind and b) set against the rest of the population, not against American trends.

I think it is fair to say that the gay community is more prejudiced - bi erasure is such a big problem because it comes mainly from the LGBT community itself.

Tbf, I never offered more evidence for my assertion that "gays are far less welcoming than straights" than my own experience... although this thread provides plenty more anecdotal fodder...!

Further, it is significant that LGBT organisations like Stonewall feel the need to remind their own community the there is a place the for B in LGBT and that the roots of bi erasure should not be minimised.

https://www.stonewall.org.uk/system/files/lgbt_in_britain_bi.pdf
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/72834141.pdf
 

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number of assertions about bisexuality, my sexuality and the way it is viewed and mistreated, the vast majority of which you have not challenged.

I never challenged it because I never took issue with that sentiment existing? I conceded that there is prejudice towards bisexual people within the gay Community. I just said it wasn't fair to generalize the gay community as being more prejudiced than the hets. Something that you never provided evidence for btw beyond anecdotes.

I have shown that most recent UK-wide stats give the proportion of self-densified bisexual people as 0.9%. That comfortably fits my definition.

So cherry picking? Okay. It doesn't disprove the US numbers. As I've already said.

The US rate on increase in LGBT individuals is an extra 1% in 3 years to 5.6% in 2020, of which slightly over half now identify as bisexual.

You are fundamentally missing my original intention/point. Which is that there are more open bisexuals than gays per new polling data. That they are not a tiny minority compared to gays. Not that there are more bisexuals overall compared to the straight population. That would be silly.

Much of what has been written in this thread perpetuates prejudice against bisexuals; all the guff about bi privilege, having your cake and eating it and pretty much all of the cited evidence. It is lazy and it is outdated.

And much of that I never agreed with or supported. I don't support prejudice of any kind. I agreed that bi erasure and hatred absolutely exist in some of my earliest replies here. You are arguing with a straw opponent my friend


I just have one point to add though. The backlash bisexual men encounter, I personally feel is warranted. There is privilege. When you couple that privilege with a lack of awareness for the oppressed group, the frustrations of the oppressed group is warranted. I don’t consider that prejudice. I’m of the belief that bisexuality is legitimate. The issue I have is how it’s exercised in our modern society. If a person is open about their desire for both gender presentations and willfully wears a non heterosexual, public facing, identity I have no objections.

However, if they take advantage of their privilege and blend, I have a problem with that. I feel the same about closeted gay men. Those that escape all of the societal consequences of a gay identity, and reap all of the benefits associated with heteronormativity, are problematic for me. That deserves criticism.

Being criticized for resting in privilege is not prejudice or hatred. It’s simply disenfranchised groups airing out their grievances and calling those individuals to a higher purpose. To each their own. I simply feel it’s important to articulate that perspective, cause it’s (bisexual prejudice) commonly mentioned. It’s akin to the “reverse racism” argument/trope.
 

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And much of it is bisexuals telling gay men what they believe. lol

I’m half joking. Forcing identity on another person is a universal feature of prejudice. White people telling black people what racism is and isn’t. TERFs telling trans women what their gender is. Or, recently in my case, being told I’m bisexual because I’m attracted to trans men.

But, still—and maybe this is because it’s I’ve been subjected to it all my life—I think there’s a difference between prejudice that results in discrimination of a materially harmful kind and the sort that is socially exclusionary.

I would 100% say that denying a bisexual man a home or employment is morally corrupt. I would have a harder time saying that about a group of gay men not wanting to associate with bisexual men.

And I think that makes sense. We respect free association. We are tolerant of people choosing their own relationships, whatever their beliefs or motives.

I’m not sure what your goal is; but if it is, in essence, requiring gay men to accept bisexual men as one and the same with themselves, I think that might be inconsistent with principles you (possibly) hold that transcend sexuality or even a conception of fairness.

If it’s simply to have your identity acknowledged, that is something only you can do. Others really don’t enter the equation there.
My goal - such as there has been one - was stumbling on this thread and finding a bunch of bullshit assertions about how men who have sex with men must be gay, ignoring bisexuality and the like... at points evidence was presented regarding bisexuality which I thought didn't stand up.

And there is a central problem that we all seem to be stumbling over; that gay men have a problem with bisexual men. Plenty of instances here.

My only role here is to try to provide a corrective light in the gloom - your, more thoughtful contributions, have been but a few of many.

Ultimately I don't have a problem with my sexual identity - it's when the rest of the community tells me what it is that bugs me.
 

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He’s nonsensical and in search of only information that confirms his story of victimization. There is no desire for understanding the mire bisexual men encounter from gay men. Also, he’s not even from America. So he won’t understand our cultural references. As millennials (big assumption), we will just continue to forge ahead. The generation ahead of us and the boomers will have to conform or go away quietly at some point lol. For now, he’s ignored.

Victim? No.
Millennial? No.
Not American? Guilty as charged.
Unable to take part in the debate as a consequence?

That's. Just. Rubbish.
 
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Ultimately I don't have a problem with my sexual identity - it's when the rest of the community tells me what it is that bugs me.

But now I wonder why. Because, and I’m trying to say this without making it sound offensive: the word “community” to refer to the coalition of sexual minorities is a misnomer. You aren’t a part of the community of gay men.

The barometer for that is how much drama you can cause at the bar and still be invited for brunch the next day.

The actual barometer is that I get to make that joke.

We have our problems. And we argue constantly; but of course I feel closer kinship with them than I would with you. Of course we shit talk the heterosexually married men on Grindr. Of course we make prejudiced jokes when one of our friends gets dumped for a woman. Of course we say things like, “c’mon. Sex with a man? Gay af.” Not all of us. But it happens for sure.

And of course it does. It’s a tribe, not a social movement.

I would suggest not letting it bother you because—and again I cannot phrase this with adequate tact—gay men do not care how you feel.

Unless you can find some outrageously isolated incident, we do not mean harm by it. We are just human.
 

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But now I wonder why. Because, and I’m trying to say this without making it sound offensive: the word “community” to refer to the coalition of sexual minorities is a misnomer. You aren’t a part of the community of gay men.

The barometer for that is how much drama you can cause at the bar and still be invited for brunch the next day.

The actual barometer is that I get to make that joke.

We have our problems. And we argue constantly; but of course I feel closer kinship with them than I would with you. Of course we shit talk the heterosexually married men on Grindr. Of course we make prejudiced jokes when one of our friends gets dumped for a woman. Of course we say things like, “c’mon. Sex with a man? Gay af.” Not all of us. But it happens for sure.

And of course it does. It’s a tribe, not a social movement.

I would suggest not letting it bother you because—and again I cannot phrase this with adequate tact—gay men do not care how you feel.

Unless you can find some outrageously isolated incident, we do not mean harm by it. We are just human.
So, your suggestion is "deal with it"? How does that float if one of your group makes an off coloured remark about a black person? Or maybe you'd prefer a straight analogy with boorish men slagging off women that they'll never shag. Should they just deal with it, or is there a hierarchy of discrimination here, cos from where I'm standing it looks like a very slippery slope. I think discrimination in all forms should be challenged just as I think lazy thinking should be challenged.*

...and I only bring up my ease with my sexual identity in relation to what you wrote...

If it’s simply to have your identity acknowledged, that is something only you can do...

I'm pretty sure don't need my sexual identity to be personally acknowledged by you, with all due respect, any more than I'm seeking your acceptance as a bisexual man. That's not important to me.

But on a topic of which I am intimately acquainted, when people start talking unsupported rubbish I feel the need to say, Hold on there, that's a load of bollocks, old chap.



* possibly this is a personal trait, I did once address a Pentecostal gathering from the stage and told them that I'm an atheist. Just the kind of person I am. :)
 

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Dr. Joe Kort who argued that "when straight men have sex with men it's not a gay thing, it's a guy thing."

This is his opinion...if you ask me, guys having sex with other guys is a gay thing.
It just sound
If it's one thing I've noticed about bisexuality, it's that gays are far less welcoming than straights. For some strange reason.
perhaps it's some sort of gay abandonment and closed mindedness...
 

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So, your suggestion is "deal with it"? How does that float if one of your group makes an off coloured remark about a black person? Or maybe you'd prefer a straight analogy with boorish men slagging off women that they'll never shag. Should they just deal with it, or is there a hierarchy of discrimination here, cos from where I'm standing it looks like a very slippery slope. I think discrimination in all forms should be challenged just as I think lazy thinking should be challenged.*

...and I only bring up my ease with my sexual identity in relation to what you wrote...



I'm pretty sure don't need my sexual identity to be personally acknowledged by you, with all due respect, any more than I'm seeking your acceptance as a bisexual man. That's not important to me.

But on a topic of which I am intimately acquainted, when people start talking unsupported rubbish I feel the need to say, Hold on there, that's a load of bollocks, old chap.



* possibly this is a personal trait, I did once address a Pentecostal gathering from the stage and told them that I'm an atheist. Just the kind of person I am. :)

I mean, yes, to an extent “deal with it.” I already tried to delineate between materially harmful prejudice and socially exclusionary prejudice.

If someone made a racist joke? Nervous laughter and “that’s bad.” Not a serious debate explaining to that person how prejudiced and wrong they are.

My ex is Taiwanese and, let me assure you, he put on the heavy accent for comedic effect more than strictly appropriate and often dragged me into doing it as well. In public. To customer service.

We’d go into Starbucks. He’d give his English name. I’d give the Mandarin one he gave me.

He’s not racist. Nor am I. Those are bad jokes, not discrimination.

Now if I saw someone denying service or physically assaulting someone? Yeah. There’s going to be a confrontation. If I see a child being excluded from learning or being bullied? Confrontation.

I’m not of the class of person that believes speech codes for personal beliefs. Actions do.
 
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I mean, yes, to an extent “deal with it.” I already tried to delineate between materially harmful prejudice and socially exclusionary prejudice.

If someone made a racist joke? Nervous laughter and “that’s bad.” Not a serious debate explaining to that person how prejudiced and wrong they are.

My ex is Taiwanese and, let me assure you, he put on the heavy accent for comedic effect more than strictly appropriate and often dragged me into doing it as well. In public. To customer service.

We’d go into Starbucks. He’d give his English name. I’d give the Mandarin one he gave me.

He’s not racist. Nor am I. Those are bad jokes, not discrimination.

Now if I saw someone denying service or physically assaulting someone? Yeah. There’s going to be a confrontation. If I see a child being excluded from learning or being bullied? Confrontation.

I’m not of the class of person that believes speech codes for personal beliefs. Actions do.
Isn't that a bit of a cop out? You're firstly suggesting that there are degrees of hate and harm that everyone understands, subscribes to and is affected by equally! Is that even possible?

Second, suggesting that bi people are in some special category that can be poked but you can never actually harm them perpetuates the culture - just as mother in law jokes perpetuate a misogynist culture. The "it's just banter" defence is a bit old fashioned.

Thirdly, plenty of the comments on the thread do speak of a problem that gay men have with bisexual ones, I'm surprised to note that a few of the commenters actually believe in bisexuality, as if that needs to be stated!

Let's put the boot on the other foot: say you wandered into a thread where a bunch of straight men were discussing gay sexuality - saying stuff about, I dunno, gay men aren't suited to be parents or people become gay because they were abused, or maybe that no-one is born gay or that as gay people you can "choose" to not become gay.

It would be perfectly acceptable for you to put them right, important perhaps, even if they did so jokingly and said it was just their opinions. You wouldn't stand for that, any more than I.

So, to suggest that it's fine to do that with bisexuals is equally false, as are many of the charges levelled at us, none of which have stood up to scrutiny here as they are often assertions based on prejudice not fact.

As I've said, I came into this thread to find gay people making bland, careless statements about how they view the sexualities of men who have sex with men and, as per, ignoring bisexuals. The OP who posed the question and highlighted the article agrees with it. Subsequently a bunch of older gay men have just added their tuppenceworth saying, "Nah, if you play with a dick you're gay." And then someone else chimes in and says bisexuals are taking over and everyone's a little bit bi... there's no consistency here just fear, jealousy and misunderstanding.

Yeah, I could have said nothing and moved on. But it's wrong on so many levels.
 

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People can call themselves what they want. I think sometimes it's just splitting hairs to justify behavior. A friend of mine had a "straight" neighbor who he had sex with on a fairly regular basis. The guy said he "fucked" his wife. When he was having sex with my friend it was just getting off. We used to joke that when the guy pounded him into the mattress it was nothing more than inter-anal masturbation.
 
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Not Gay or even technically Bi, so this is just my opinion

Tomorrow another book written by another author will come out, it will have a completely different take on the topic; as all fiction books are just personal opinion or based on the facts presented to you .

My real push back, was why go to rural America to interview males, when the author is listed as a Professor in British Columbia, Of all places go to rural America to interview 60 men. Hell, In Rural America, some towns barely have 6o males in them . Second , how do you find 60 sexually fluid men; and not piss off any straight guys or closeted guys ; or get your ass kicked . I live among Northern rural hillbiillies, they still fly the TRUMP 2020 flags ; and I have ancestry in the rural south.

Though I can not disprove the article / book, I can say I am skeptical of the information tendered
 
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Not Gay or even technically Bi, so this is just my opinion

Tomorrow another book written by another author will come out, it will have a completely different take on the topic; as all fiction books are just personal opinion or based on the facts presented to you .

My real push back, was why go to rural America to interview males, when the author is listed as a Professor in British Columbia, Of all places go to rural America to interview 60 men. Hell, In Rural America, some towns barely have 6o males in them . Second , how do you find 60 sexually fluid men; and not piss off any straight guys or closeted guys ; or get your ass kicked . I live among Northern rural hillbiillies, they still fly the TRUMP 2020 flags ; and I have ancestry in the rural south.

Though I can not disprove the article / book, I can say I am skeptical of the information tendered
I guess you bring up a good point which in my opinion ties into one of my criticisms I posted early on. Where is the sociological factor being taken into consideration? At least from the article. I didn't see much consideration given to that aspect of it and how that plays a role knot why certain men identify how they do.
 
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We used to joke that when the guy pounded him into the mattress it was nothing more than inter-anal masturbation.

Honestly I think for some guys, sex is just elaborate masturbation. There's guys who have come out as gay who had sex with women when they were young and horny but just prefer being with guys and we except them as being gay. So I can see who some guys who get off with other men can still prefer to be with women for relationships and consider themselves straight.

And obviously bisexual men also exist, despite what people on the Celebrity forum want to claim by always policing any guy who uses the label.
 

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I've been involved with many many bisexuals. In 99 cases out of 100 bisexuals emotionally/sexually bond with women and just sexually bond with men. Bisexual men fall in love with women and have sport sex with men. They are often friendly with the men, but almost never in love with them. I've met only a handful of bisexual men who have fallen in love with a male sex partner. 70 percent of my massage business has been with bisexual men who are in relationships with women.
 
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bigboaster

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I've been involved with many many bisexuals. In 99 cases out of 100 bisexuals emotionally/sexually bond with women and just sexually bond with men. Bisexual men fall in love with women and have sport sex with men. They are often friendly with the men, but almost never in love with them. I've met only a handful of bisexual men who have fallen in love with a male sex partner. 70 percent of my massage business has been with bisexual men who are in relationships with women.
I really wish there would be some serious studying done on this subject. I'm genuinely curious how prevalent this is or isn't with bisexual men.
 
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