On being civil to incivility, or...

[b.c.]

... High Time to WAKE THE FUCK UP............ kdjladlfksfdd ......... ..... . ......... ...................post no. 12,,000


Around the time soon after Sarah Sanders was unceremoniously voted (reportedly) out of a restaurant and shortly after DeNiro was apologizing for telling Trump where to get off, there ensued the usual and predictable brow beating on the part of some Liberals about "civility" or the lack thereof.

The kind of discussions that one would NEVER hear of conservatives having, because as usual, we're always held to standards of fair play and propriety that the right not only don't demand of themselves or their representatives, but are quick to hold US to, and use against US, while simultaneously RIDICULING us for our folly. So that, as I've said NUMEROUS times before, liberals end up bringing knives to a gunfight.

So while liberals debate among ourselves about propriety, civility and "going high" THEY, instead of reciprocation and meeting us halfway, retreat even further into their narrow mindedness, bolstered by the normalizing of their twisted ideology, and in return trot out even MORE of it.

Rolling back civil rights, sanctioning voter suppression, demonizing minorities, rounding up immigrants and snatching away children without sufficient means of tracking their whereabouts (because the fkrs never PLANNED on having to return them, APPARENTLY).

AND in midst of all of that and more, SOME, FINALLY, are starting to wake the fuck up to the realization that BEING NICE ISN'T GOING TO CUT IT.

A number of posts ago I referenced a Bill Maher segment regarding this. Here it is:

The Reason Bill Maher's Latest Rant Went Viral

Others are beginning to question how far being nice gets us as well, such as this op ed:

Opinion | We Have a Crisis of Democracy, Not Manners - The New York Times

and then there's this:

How to treat Trump and his supporters - Shame them, shun them, and show them the door.

and this:

Charles P. Pierce Chides MSM -Corey Stewart is not a "firebrand. He is an unapologetic racist."

Charles P. Pierce Did Not Like WaPo's "Civility" Editorial. Not Even A Little Bit.

And finally these thoughts:

Bruce Springsteen goes off script during Broadway show to slam border policy - CBS News

"There's the beautiful quote by Dr. King that says the arc of the moral universe is long but it bends toward justice," he continued... I've lived long enough to see that in action and to put some faith in it. But I've also lived long enough to know that arc doesn't bend on its own.""


Obama to America: 'We have to do more than say 'this isn’t who we are.' We have to prove it'

"To be an American is to have a shared commitment to an ideal – that all of us are created equal, and all of us deserve the chance to become something better.

That’s the legacy our parents and grandparents and generations before created for us, and it’s something we have to protect for the generations to come. But we have to do more than say “this isn’t who we are.” We have to prove it – through our policies, our laws, our actions, and our votes."


High time to wake the fuck UP.

 

[Drifterwood]

Someone in New York was rude?

 

[Perados]

... High Time to WAKE THE FUCK UP............ kdjladlfksfdd ......... ..... . ......... ...................post no. 12,,000


Around the time soon after Sarah Sanders was unceremoniously voted (reportedly) out of a restaurant and shortly after DeNiro was apologizing for telling Trump where to get off, there ensued the usual and predictable brow beating on the part of some Liberals about "civility" or the lack thereof.

The kind of discussions that one would NEVER hear of conservatives having, because as usual, we're always held to standards of fair play and propriety that the right not only don't demand of themselves or their representatives, but are quick to hold US to, and use against US, while simultaneously RIDICULING us for our folly. So that, as I've said NUMEROUS times before, liberals end up bringing knives to a gunfight.

So while liberals debate among ourselves about propriety, civility and "going high" THEY, instead of reciprocation and meeting us halfway, retreat even further into their narrow mindedness, bolstered by the normalizing of their twisted ideology, and in return trot out even MORE of it.

Rolling back civil rights, sanctioning voter suppression, demonizing minorities, rounding up immigrants and snatching away children without sufficient means of tracking their whereabouts (because the fkrs never PLANNED on having to return them, APPARENTLY).

AND in midst of all of that and more, SOME, FINALLY, are starting to wake the fuck up to the realization that BEING NICE ISN'T GOING TO CUT IT.

A number of posts ago I referenced a Bill Maher segment regarding this. Here it is:

The Reason Bill Maher's Latest Rant Went Viral

Others are beginning to question how far being nice gets us as well, such as this op ed:

Opinion | We Have a Crisis of Democracy, Not Manners - The New York Times

and then there's this:

How to treat Trump and his supporters - Shame them, shun them, and show them the door.

and this:

Charles P. Pierce Chides MSM -Corey Stewart is not a "firebrand. He is an unapologetic racist."

Charles P. Pierce Did Not Like WaPo's "Civility" Editorial. Not Even A Little Bit.

And finally these thoughts:

Bruce Springsteen goes off script during Broadway show to slam border policy - CBS News

"There's the beautiful quote by Dr. King that says the arc of the moral universe is long but it bends toward justice," he continued... I've lived long enough to see that in action and to put some faith in it. But I've also lived long enough to know that arc doesn't bend on its own.""


Obama to America: 'We have to do more than say 'this isn’t who we are.' We have to prove it'

"To be an American is to have a shared commitment to an ideal – that all of us are created equal, and all of us deserve the chance to become something better.

That’s the legacy our parents and grandparents and generations before created for us, and it’s something we have to protect for the generations to come. But we have to do more than say “this isn’t who we are.” We have to prove it – through our policies, our laws, our actions, and our votes."


High time to wake the fuck UP.

Don't think it's time to get as low as Trump (or parts of the republicans). That's something you can't win...
It's good to show that there is a different way. That you can have a political culture with manners, without calling names and ever on going provocations.

I say, ignore Trump's provocations and focus on what is important. Make sure that you call him where he missed what is important. Don't follow his agenda, by answering his insults and provocations. Ignore them!

 

[tripod]

I wouldn't encourage Democrats to make asses out of themselves... taking the low road is never going to end well.

The Basket of Deplorables" comment lost Hillary the election. You can't admit it, but that was the moment that she lost independent & swing voters. Not only can you not admit it, but the Deep state conveniently came up with a bullshit counter-narrative so that you don't have to deal with the TRUTH... simply because you cannot handle the truth.

Now the latest flashpoint is the Selective Outrage over immigration... which is pulling on the flabby heartstrings of most low information Americans that have NO IDEA that this whole shitshow was put in motion by Obama.

The reality is, that your favorite president was the DEPORTER-IN-CHIEF and you said nothing for 8 years. Absolutely nothing...

P.S. Charlie Pierce is a 1st class arsehole.

NCLR head: Obama 'deporter-in-chief'

“We respectfully disagree with the president on his ability to stop unnecessary deportations,” Murguía will say during a Tuesday night speech to NCLR’s annual Capital Awards dinner, according to prepared remarks. “He can stop tearing families apart. He can stop throwing communities and businesses into chaos. He can stop turning a blind eye to the harm being done. He does have the power to stop this. Failure to act will be a shameful legacy for his presidency.”

- The National Council of La Raza president Janet Murguía

Thank Obama for Trump’s Child Detentions, Immigrant Advocates Say

The Obama administration dramatically expanded family detention space after a surge of immigrant mothers and children came to the border in 2014. It was so prevalent that private prison companies have cashed in on the practice. In a 2015 shareholder report, officials with the private prison company CoreCivic—then known as Corrections Corporation of America—boasted that a new contract in Texas to detain mothers and children would boost its yearly revenue by $49 million.

Refuge Denied: The Plight of Central-American Women and Children in U.S. Detention Centers

"On November 10, 2016, Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) banned the use of crayons at the Karnes Family Detention Center, a privately-owned immigrant detention facility in San Antonio, TX. Children at the Center had been coloring on the walls, which ICE described as “destruction of property” that “caused damage to the contractor.” That contractor, the GEO Group, has earned over $57 million in profits from that facility alone.

From twelve months ago up until August, 2016, 66,000 family units (consisting mostly of women and children) have been apprehended at the border. In comparison, 61,000 family units were detained two years ago during this same period. Statistics from the Department of Homeland Security state that there have been an additional 51,000 unaccompanied refugee children fleeing Central America alone."


The Deportation Machine Obama Built for President Trump

"In his first two years, newly appointed Director of the Office of Homeland Security Tom Ridge expanded the purview of his department to include an immigration enforcement plan that sought to achieve a “100% removal rate” of the undocumented population in the United States by seeing to the drafting of a document that came to shape the next 15 years, “ENDGAME Office of Detention and Removal Strategic Plan.” At the time, the Immigration and Naturalization Service (later broken up into the Citizenship and Immigration Services, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, and Customs and Border Protection) had approximately 26,000 agents and $4.9 billion. It was an enormous leap from when ICE was previously housed within Department of Justice but nothing like what it grew to be today.

Instead of reversing that architecture and disavowing that plan, President Obama turbocharged it. To pay for the ballooning enforcement-first approach, the budget for immigration enforcement grew 300 percent from the resources given at the time of its founding under Bush to $18 billion annually, more than all other federal law-enforcement agencies’ budget combined."


Separating Immigrant Mothers From Their Children Is Abhorrent and Unfortunately We Have Seen It Before

The International Human Rights Clinic at the University of Chicago School of Law recently released a report outlining crimes the Obama administration allegedly committed against refugee children in their custody. Examples of abuses against immigrant children include:

• 
  
  
  • Punching a child in the head three times;
  • Kicking a child in the ribs;
  • Using a stun gun on a boy, causing him to fall to the ground, shaking, with his eyes rolling back in his head;
  • Running over a 17-year-old with a patrol vehicle and then punching him several times;
  • Verbally abusing detained children, calling them dogs and “other ugly things”;
  • Denying detained children permission to stand or move freely for days and threatening children who stood up with transfer to solitary confinement in a small, freezing room;
  • Denying a pregnant minor medical attention when she reported pain, which preceded a stillbirth;
  • Subjecting a 16-year-old girl to a search in which they “forcefully spread her legs and touched her private parts so hard that she screamed”;
  • Leaving a 4-pound premature baby and her minor mother in an overcrowded and dirty cell full of sick people, against medical advice;
  • Throwing out a child’s birth certificate and threatening him with sexual abuse by an adult male detainee.

These types of abuses against refugee children were a dirty open secret of the Obama administration, and were largely ignored by the legacy media, as evidenced by the fact that prominent forces on the left seized the opportunity by circulating the 2014 photographs that parenthetically are not all that dissimilar from those released in 2004 depicting Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse. Those on the left either have very short memories, or they were hoping that we do.

We don’t.

Cindy Carcamo, a journalist who has faithfully covered immigration for The Los Angeles Times, appeared on PBS News Hour over the weekend, and explained how President Trump’s policy of enforcing the criminal law against illegal entry and separating mothers from their children also occurred when Obama implemented his policy of jailing refugee mothers with their children in deportation internment camps.

Unfortunately, the outrage we are currently witnessing from hyperpartisan Democrats, far left-leaning pundits, and former Obama administration officials about Trump’s policy (which is abhorrent) has been conveniently manufactured for political gain. It should also be noted that these same people now voicing outrage were curiously (strategically?) silent about the plight of immigrant children when the Deporter-in-Chief was torturing them in deportation jails.

 

[b.c.]

Thank you @Perados for you opinion and observation. Tripod, about what I'd expect.


Here's another take:

Historian Pulls Up 1934 NYTimes Story Urging Jews Be Civil Towards Nazis.

Don Lemon Takes Aim At Donald Trump: 'It’s My Obligation' To Call Him Racist | HuffPost

And yet another take, again an offering from Bill Maher. Yes, his comedy can border on the abrasive (deliberately so I think), but IMO, he does make some valid points here. While liberals are mincing over words and fretting over civility Republicans don't apologize for SHIT. And certainly not for TRUMP.

 

[TexanStar]

Thank you @Perados for you opinion and observation. Tripod, about what I'd expect.


Here's another take:

Historian Pulls Up 1934 NYTimes Story Urging Jews Be Civil Towards Nazis.

Don Lemon Takes Aim At Donald Trump: 'It’s My Obligation' To Call Him Racist | HuffPost

And yet another take, again an offering from Bill Maher. Yes, his comedy can border on the abrasive (deliberately so I think), but IMO, he does make some valid points here. While liberals are mincing over words and fretting over civility Republicans don't apologize for SHIT. And certainly not for TRUMP.

B.C. won't read any of this, but he misses the point of Bill Mahers rant completely (the first one).

Be uncivil, don't be uncivil, the point is that it doesn't count for shit. It may make you feel good, but it doesn't do anything.

As usual, B.C. focusing on what he can do to be unproductive.

 

[Klingsor]

I think it's more a matter of temperament than of strategy. People will be who they are--we certainly see different personalities revealed in this forum, and they remain pretty consistent. For better or worse, I don't see that changing.

 

[b.c.]

Really? And while the rights of minorities and others erode, while expressions of racism are on the rise, while agencies designed to protect and help people and the environment are dismantled, while immigrants of color are demonized, voters disenfranchised, support programs undermined, and and a whole lot MORE, what "temperament" do you suggest would be the proper one?

If outrage, indignation, protests, speaking out, and calling this an THEM exactly what they ARE, what then would be the proper response... and WHEN?

What, for example, do you suppose was the "temperament" of these women to cause them to act?

Hundreds of women risk arrest in mass act of civil disobedience in protest of family separation

Seeing what's happening in this country is like watching some NOT so slow motion movie in a theater full of spectators. A movie in which a whole lot of nasty shit is happening and bad guys are doing all this stuff and the audience is sitting there watching and waiting just knowing the hero is going to rush in to save the day.

Only problem being, the hero in the movie is asleep. And he's dreaming of yet another hero.

The hero isn't coming, because the hero is US. And we're still watching and waiting.

 

[TexanStar]

Really? And while the rights of minorities and others erode, while expressions of racism are on the rise, while agencies designed to protect and help people and the environment are dismantled, while immigrants of color are demonized, voters disenfranchised, support programs undermined, and and a whole lot MORE, what "temperament" do you suggest would be the proper one?

If outrage, indignation, protests, speaking out, and calling this an THEM exactly what they ARE, what then would be the proper response... and WHEN?

What, for example, do you suppose was the "temperament" of these women to cause them to act?

Hundreds of women risk arrest in mass act of civil disobedience in protest of family separation

Seeing what's happening in this country is like watching some NOT so slow motion movie in a theater full of spectators. A movie in which a whole lot of nasty shit is happening and bad guys are doing all this stuff and the audience is sitting there watching and waiting just knowing the hero is going to rush in to save the day.

Only problem being, the hero in the movie is asleep. And he's dreaming of yet another hero.

The hero isn't coming, because the hero is US. And we're still watching and waiting.

View attachment 1159019

People don't need to go get arrested, they just need to fucking vote.

Only 60% of eligible voters actually voted in the 2016 Presidential election. Only 36% of eligible voters turned out for the 2014 midterms.

If you want change, the best / easiest thing you can do is make sure that everyone who feels kinda similarly to you is registered and knows when and how to cast their votes and encourage them to get off their ass even if they feel like it doesn't amount to anything.

 

[deleted15807]

The stakes are far too high for niceties. Republicans have shown their absolute willingness to do whatever it takes to keep power. And they must be answered with equal opposite force.

Trump treats politics like a knife fight. Democrats can’t pretend it’s a garden party.
​

Finally they should start at the top:

The 472 People, Places and Things Donald
Trump Has Insulted on Twitter: A Complete List
​

 

[tripod]

The stakes are far too high for niceties. Republicans have shown their absolute willingness to do whatever it takes to keep power. And they must be answered with equal opposite force.Trump treats politics like a knife fight. Democrats can’t pretend it’s a garden party.

Actually what the Democrats are doing is the exact opposite of what has needed to be done for decades.

Their rank and file voter base are the ones who are loud mouthed and nasty... they obstruct and refuse to give an inch.

Which is what the actual elected Democrats need to be doing... NOT THE FUCKING CITIZENS "voting" people out of restaurants.

I continually shake my head as to WTF are the mainstream-corporate-Democrats thinking... it's always opposite world with these people.

​

 

[b.c.]

The stakes are far too high for niceties. Republicans have shown their absolute willingness to do whatever it takes to keep power. And they must be answered with equal opposite force.

Trump treats politics like a knife fight. Democrats can’t pretend it’s a garden party.
​

Finally they should start at the top:

The 472 People, Places and Things Donald
Trump Has Insulted on Twitter: A Complete List
​

Exactly, Sargon. No here is talking about the violent overthrow of elected government, riots in the streets, and anarchy.

But what we ARE talking about is an end to trying to be the nice guys... the ones who THEY count upon "going high" when THEY go as low as they choose.

We're talking about an end to certain so-called liberal rationale that tends to pacify the right, by lending support to and NORMALIZING hate based right winged retrogressive ideology and policy making.

We're talking about being vocal, demonstrative activists, in speaking out and calling out hate based, racists, anti-Mexican immigrant, anti-poor, anti-environment, anti-gay rights, anti-Muslim, anti-science, anti-women's rights, and anti-anything-that-doesn't-most-benefit-the-wealthy-ELITE ideology, for exactly what it IS.

We're talking about the same socio-political activism, outcry, non-violent protest and involvement that Dr. King called for during THAT movement, especially seeing as how the right and their constituency are HELL BENT on turning back the clock to THOSE times, "again."

We're talking about waking the fuck UP.

 

[Thikn2velvet1]

Based on the crazy stuff I read here, Trump will win in a walkover next Presidential election.

“Its the economy, stupid.” Where have we heard that?

Family separation? If I had my kids with me and shoplifted a diamond ring what would happen to my kids?

65% of Americans want illegal immigrants sent home.

Global warming hardly registers with the average American.

Most Americans look unfavorably on Black Lives Matter.

Ask anyone today, anyone, “what do you think of people who can’t find a job?” Answer, “ They aren’t looking for one.”

Kicking Sanders out of the Red Hen added 3 million undecided voters to the Republicans.

The 2 top Democratic candidates today per a recent poll are Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden.

Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton top 2020 Democratic presidential candidates in new poll

The Democrats can’t find a coherent message that voters care about.

 

[b.c.]

What you mean is that Democrats can't find a coherent message that BIGOTS care about. You forget that your hero and savior Trump lost the popular vote LAST time, even BEFORE people knew what kind of b----------------- he really was.

However, to NO one's surprise, your post is typical of your usual baseless proclamations pulled from your bum and (apparently) liked by those who consider America's minorities to be "external classes of people."

 

[deleted15807]

What you mean is that Democrats can't find a coherent message that BIGOTS care about.

Exactly b.c. if you want to totally flush your morals and beliefs down the drain then by all means go after the Trump voters.

RESEARCH FINDS THAT RACISM, SEXISM, AND STATUS FEARS DROVE TRUMP VOTERS
Two new studies suggest Trump broadened the Republican Party's appeal by tapping into deep-seated anxieties and prejudices.
​

You would think they would have any sort of shame for the above but that would be wrong as Steve Bannon said: Let them call you racist, let them call you xenophobes, let them call you nativists. Wear it as a badge of honor. @malakos he's speaking to you but you already wear it no?

Bruce Bartlett, an economic historian, was a domestic policy adviser to President Ronald Reagan and a Treasury official under President George H.W. Bush. writes:

The Republican Party today is basically a coalition of grievances united by one thing: hatred. Hatred of immigrants, hatred of minorities, hatred of intellectuals, hatred of gays, feminists and many other groups too numerous to mention. What binds them together is hatred of Democrats because they are welcoming to every group that Republicans reject.

The Republican Party Has Become the Party of Hate​

 

[b.c.]

Exactly b.c. if you want to totally flush your morals and beliefs down the drain then by all means go after the Trump voters.

RESEARCH FINDS THAT RACISM, SEXISM, AND STATUS FEARS DROVE TRUMP VOTERS
Two new studies suggest Trump broadened the Republican Party's appeal by tapping into deep-seated anxieties and prejudices.
​

You would think they would have any sort of shame for the above but that would be wrong as Steve Bannon said: Let them call you racist, let them call you xenophobes, let them call you nativists. Wear it as a badge of honor. @malakos he's speaking to you but you already wear it no?

Bruce Bartlett, an economic historian, was a domestic policy adviser to President Ronald Reagan and a Treasury official under President George H.W. Bush. writes:

The Republican Party today is basically a coalition of grievances united by one thing: hatred. Hatred of immigrants, hatred of minorities, hatred of intellectuals, hatred of gays, feminists and many other groups too numerous to mention. What binds them together is hatred of Democrats because they are welcoming to every group that Republicans reject.

The Republican Party Has Become the Party of Hate​

All spot on. You see, conservatives and Republicans like to make fun of and ridicule the notion of "safe spaces" as it applies to minorities because in spite of all the various ways in which minorities are "othered" and made to feel as outsiders, in the conservative mind, minorities shouldn't have need or want for "safe spaces."

in point of fact, the entire fkn Trump candidacy and his subsequent win by electoral vote was founded upon HIS constituent's sense of loss... loss of THEIR "safe space."

"Those people" were stealing their country away. A black man was in the white house, a black woman was First Lady, and a black man was the Attorney General. And conservatives lost their SHIT.

Then along came the bigot to tell them that Mexican criminals were pillaging their homes, Mexican rapists were defiling their women, and Muslims were terrorizing the land... told them that America was being taken advantage of, that Christians and families were under attack,

and that it was all the fault of that black man and woman in the white house... told them that HE, their lord and savior, was going to make it all right, would undo everything Obama, and thereby make American "great" again (i.e. before we-know-who was in the white house).

 

[Penis Aficionado]

The main reason Democrats shouldn't worry about "civility" is because Americans vote for the people with the biggest balls. Poll after poll shows that most Republican policy positions are highly unpopular -- sometimes even among people who identify as Republicans! Yet they win more than their fair share of elections.

Republicans have a huge advantage in that they are a party built around an ideology, while Democrats are a party built around policies and consituent groups. This allows Republicans to assertively and unequivocally state what they stand for, while Democrats must weigh everything they say in terms of who will be pleased and who will be offended.

 

[b.c.]

The main reason Democrats shouldn't worry about "civility" is because Americans vote for the people with the biggest balls. Poll after poll shows that most Republican policy positions are highly unpopular -- sometimes even among people who identify as Republicans! Yet they win more than their fair share of elections.

Republicans have a huge advantage in that they are a party built around an ideology, while Democrats are a party built around policies and consituent groups. This allows Republicans to assertively and unequivocally state what they stand for, while Democrats must weigh everything they say in terms of who will be pleased and who will be offended.

Thank you for your input.

I think both parties have platforms/policies built around an ideology and both cater too much to the wealthy elite, and I'm not blind to that fact.

That being a given, I also think BOTH parties build policies, and state their ideology in terms of who they think will be pleased. It's just that the two parties are interested in pleasing different groups of people, without much overlap from either grouping.

And while the establishment Democratic party has stayed pretty much just left of center on many issues, sometimes at the cost of alienating their farther left constituency (in part because too many of them in Washington have waffled on their positions and/or didn't have balls enough to stand by their convictions),

Republicans, in turn, have stopped couching the ideology they stood for (and for quite some time) in vague dog whistle terminology, and have lurched even further to the right, unabashedly and unapoligetically making a direct appeal to supremacists, separatists, nationalists, racists, xenophobes, misogynists, and others from THEIR particular "basket."

while also stoking and playing upon the fears of those among their ranks who may NOT be bigots, but have either bought into the narrative or don't give a damn about the hate filled rhetoric and the demonizing of minorities, regardless. They're the ones just looking the other way and rationalizing their disconnect.

Which, as I've written before, makes them, in MY mind, just as "deplorable" as that REAL haters - because THEY at least should KNOW better.

 

[TexanStar]

The 2 top Democratic candidates today per a recent poll are Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden..

I think it's too early to believe this counts for anything. Even these two haven't announced as candidates. It's more about name recognition at this point.

Hillary lost to trump in 2016 and Biden is so handsy with girls/women that I worry he's going to have a sexual molestation scandal come out about him at some point (not that such accusations stopped Trump or Bill Clinton from winning).

 

[Industrialsize]