Homosexuality v.s. Androphilia

[Kazimir]

This may look like a question about word choice and labels, but it's actually a bit more nuanced.
I'm not using "androphilia" as an alternate word for "homosexuality," or a way to talk about man-love without specifying the gender of the referent — I'm using it to discuss a similar yet distinct idea.

For the purposes of this question,
HOMOSEXUALITY refers to a sexual attraction to men, and ANDROPHILIA refers to a sexual attraction to masculinity.

Please consider:
1) How do you feel about masculine women?
2) How do you feel about feminine men?
3) How important is physical sex to attraction? How important is a masculine presentation?
4) Is there a certain threshold of masculinity someone must pass before you're interested? Can it be passed by people who aren't male?

I appreciate you taking the time.

 

[Kazimir]

Interesting results already!
Thank y'all for answering! You all rock

I asked the same question to the straight guys, and to the women. Only 3 and 2 votes respectively so far, so can't make any broad statements...but I'm going to anyway. So far, the straight respondents have valued physical sex more, and the women have chosen "Other" and "This distinction doesn't make sense."
I'm very curious to see if this trend continues. That would have very interesting implications!

 

[Kazimir]

This has been up for a little over a month, and here are the results, from both the gay and straight men's surveys:

For gay men, this suggests that gender expression is a primary determiner of attraction. It would appear to be more important, broadly speaking, than physical sex is.

In contrast, for straight men, this suggests that physical sex is the dominant determiner of attraction, being considered important by 100% of respondents. A feminine expression was important to a majority of respondents, but never more so than (or independently from) physical sex.


How useful is this data?
Not very.
The sample size (n=35) is very small, there is no redundancy built into the questionnaire to ensure accuracy, and the respondents are not randomly selected. These are significant weaknesses. So take these results with a big grain of salt.
However, it may suggest a real underlying difference in how the sexualities of gay and straight men work. And it hints at a hitherto unexplored distinction between androphilia and homosexuality in men. Hopefully this is studied properly in the future.

 

[RealTigerDivalente]

As I read this highly intellectualized approach to something as simple and straightforward as Safe hard sucking, fucking, and cumming, it became clear to me what a dark abyss I and countless other males have fallen into since the 1970s and suffered in silence for nothing.

It is best for future generations to forget all recent propaganda labels, narratives, noise, nonsense, and nastiness. Their best strategic interests require them to do exactly what our great ancestors have done for millennia: Focus on what is real, reasonable, and justified to do in AND out of bed, especially when they have an Objective Need to address and satisfy practically every day.

Overthinking can easily stop, block, obstruct, resist, or prevent a person of any gender from taking full advantage any Safe hands, mouths, and private parts they are fortunate to have access to at all times, in all places, and on all days.

This is one good reason to be encouraged to overthink less, overanalyze less, overjudge less, and especially to be less judgmental and demanding of what Safe hands, mouths, and private parts they may AND will use and enjoy to the fullest every time they need Safe Pleasure!

Otherwise, most people will grind their teeth and go to bed hungry for real, wild, and unforgettable Safe hard sucking, fucking, and cumming today, tomorrow, and the day after tomorrow. This will almost certainly continue for the rest of their so often nowadays nonexistent intimate lives! THAT is the objective worst-case scenario, and it should be the most unappealing, unsexy, and undesirable dark path forward regardless of anything and, if necessary, despite everything.

 

[RealTigerDivalente]

Such posts do a great disservice, especially to young western men. What exactly is the eternal Objective Reality? You may be fortunate to have access to Safe female hands, mouths, and private parts at certain times and places. So, for the lack of anything else/better, you gratefully grab and use them.

There may be only Safe male hands, mouths, and private parts at other times and places. So, you do it again, Gratefully grabbing and using them to get your much-needed dose of wild and unforgettable Safe hard sucking, fucking, and cumming.

At other times and places, both female and male Safe hands, mouths, and private parts may be accessible and available. So, you (finally) have a Choice and are free to choose whatever YOU want, prefer, prioritize, dream, and/or fantasize at the time.

What does that make you? Simply a still alive, healthy, and horny pragmatic realist who NEVER (AGAIN) overthinks and overanalyzes whether a candidate intimate partner is at least (12x+y)/5% feminine in order to consider intimacy as 94.85% real straight man! Otherwise, you will dutifully go to bed that day hungry for any Safe Pleasure because it is the only "good," "right," and "acceptable" thing to do according to mass propaganda, brainwashing, and conditioning.

ENOUGH with the never-ending insane intellectualization of something that is not intellectual at all at best and pure propaganda nonsense at worst because the real-world consequences are dire, and the nonexistent nowadays intimate lives of most western males are real!!! No amount of erotica or porn can compensate for or change that unfortunate fact!

 

[Kazimir]

As I read this [...] it became clear to me what a dark abyss I and countless other males have fallen into since the 1970s and suffered in silence for nothing.
It is best for future generations to forget all recent propaganda labels, narratives, noise, nonsense, and nastiness.

What are you talking about?
Dark abyss, 70s, propaganda, narratives — you've completely lost me. I'm just trying to study sexual psychology here...

Overthinking can easily stop, block, obstruct, resist, or prevent a person of any gender from taking full advantage any Safe hands, mouths, and private parts they are fortunate to have access to[...]

Knowing that pleasant-sounding chords are made of sound waves with simple whole-number ratios doesn't make music less enjoyable.
Understanding the chemistry that goes into making a good wine doesn't prevent us from drinking it.
Why, then, should sex be any different? Why should trying to understand the mechanics of desire hinder or prevent it?

This is one good reason to be encouraged to overthink less, overanalyze less, overjudge less, and especially to be less judgmental and demanding of what Safe hands, mouths, and private parts they may AND will use[...]

I'm with you on being judgmental.
But sexual selectivity has been around for hundreds of millions of years. It can't be laid at the feet of a cultural shift in the 1970s. People have had various requirements for sexual partners since before there were people.
Some people are more selective than others. But to presume that indiscriminate sex with any willing partner is the norm, and that everything else is a sad aberration is not reflective of reality.

Such posts do a great disservice, especially to young western men. What exactly is the eternal Objective Reality? You may be fortunate to have access to Safe female hands, mouths, and private parts [...] So, for the lack of anything else/better, you gratefully grab and use them.

There may be only Safe male hands, mouths, and private parts at other times and places. So, you do it again[...]

At other times and places, both female and male Safe hands, mouths, and private parts may be accessible and available. So, you (finally) have a Choice and are free to choose whatever YOU want, prefer[...]

"Any port in a storm"?
This argument implies it's own antithesis. You freely state that people have preferences, and imply that these might fall along sex/gender lines (bolded). But at the same time, throughout the rest of your denunciation, you imply that having preferences that might preclude having sex with someone based on sex/gender is bad. As though only bi/pan people are good, and everyone else is fundamentally broken.
And that having the temerity not to want to sleep with just anyone who offers is unnatural and harmful.

...overthinks and overanalyzes whether a candidate intimate partner is at least (12x+y)/5% feminine in order to consider intimacy as 94.85% real straight man!

The point was to explore what drives sexual attraction. There is no right or wrong, no mathematical formulæ, no prescription of who can sleep with whom, and no defining of what a "real straight man" is or does.
The only thing of interest is the question: "What makes people attractive to you?"

ENOUGH with the never-ending insane intellectualization of something that is not intellectual at all at best and pure propaganda nonsense at worst

Everything is intellectual.
And sexuality is just as much a part of the human experience as sleeping, eating, the beating of your heart. People dedicate their lives to studying how our tissues grow, or how the nerves in our brains work; from this we get medicine. They study the mind, and the ailments that can afflict it; from this we get psychotherapy. Surely you'd agree that those are worthwhile pursuits.
Why, then, should we neglect this fundamental part of who we are? Why should we relegate it alone to the dark corners of the unexplored, when it too is knowable?
We've ignored our sexuality and hid it away for centuries, calling it "sinful" and "profane." We've only just started to study it, and it's long overdue.

 

[RealTigerDivalente]

Thank you for your detailed honest reply. I have never stated that anyone is broken because they have or do not have sex with someone. I only look at it from a biochemical standpoint. According to clinical studies, just two weeks without sex, which can be any sex for one's indifferent to what details private parts, automatically and predictably slashes testosterone production!

This has an impact on everything in their dear body, mind, and spirit, whether directly or indirectly. So, after only two weeks on a common sex crash diet for whatever excuse, handwashing, or common brainwashing, a male faces a major biochemical problem with far-reaching consequences!

If it is so frequently caused by an artificial impediment such as "I cannot take advantage of all those safe hands, mouths, and private parts around because they are from the wrong gender," that is irresponsible if not (completely) brainwashed because it will push his vital key anabolic hormone into a dead spiral.

The longer it continues to fall towards rock bottom testosterone production, the more he must forget about his radiant health, strategic interests, fabulous well-being, and bright future as more or less dependent and reliant on at least average levels testosterone for support.

So, the eternal Objective Reality is still unconcerned about anything intellectual and selective, particularly arbitrary and capricious in bed! It has only cared about whether You, my dear son, and everyone else address and satisfy each of your Objective Needs every time, regardless of anything and, if necessary, despite everything like mass propaganda, brainwashing, and conditioning.

Everything other than dutifully and urgently doing whatever Safe, Rich (Important, Valuable, Beneficial, Supportive), Responsible, and Win-Win is mental chewing gum at best. It is perfectly acceptable for you to be interested in and study. However, it must never take precedence because, at the very least, testosterone production will suffer, and almost everything else will suffer as a result For Nothing.

This is clearly unreasonable, unjustified, and self-betrayal. Hopefully, this clarifies why it is CRITICALLY IMPORTANT for younger people, particularly males, to view sex as a regular hot workout with at least one Safe partner of any gender, rather than as a beauty contest with winners and losers or some politically correct dictate about doing the only "good," "right," and "acceptable" thing according to the latest and loudest prevailing mass propaganda, brainwashing, and conditioning.

I am sure you do not overthink and overanalyze anything related to eating Safe food every time, every place, and every day, because if you do, you will end up starving most or all the time, which will quickly devastate you. The same thing happens with intimacy, only more slowly and subtly.

I have done my part to warn those who, like you and me, are prone to intellectualizing everything to make an exception at least for Safe hard sucking, fucking, and cumming because Safe sex and food should NEVER AGAIN be overanalyzed and intellectualized. The consequences are simply too severe to overlook. Just ask your favorite 40-year-old total virgin from the avalanche of such since the 1970s!

 

[RealTigerDivalente]

Let me explain things from another perspective. You are only concerned with your research. I am deeply concerned about the Consequences of your and similar research because I am one of countless males who have SEVERELY SUFFERED IN SILENCE since the 1970s after finding themselves in a dark swamp or worse because of such!!!

That has occurred precisely as a result of such recently invented labels and propagated narratives, which can and frequently do divorce them from the eternal objective reality in which there are no sexual labels or anything more and different than various hands, mouths, and private parts that are Safe, accessible, available, and good enough or not to use and take advantage of for sex at any time, any place, and any day.

Hopefully, you are aware that far too many fellow males have committed suicide, and continue to commit suicide, around the world, precisely because they end up in some mental dark corner, or worse, because of a common made-up label, narrative, noise, nonsense, and nastiness that is more or less rooted in research and writing like yours!

It is not inherently negative, but it can have dark, dangerous, and devastating consequences, particularly for younger people who lack the panoramic perspective that only pragmatic and objective realism can provide.

So, keep doing your research without being too harsh on me or anyone else who genuinely cares to provide a fair warning that you cannot or do not care enough to provide. Especially to all of the younger males around the world who, due to a lack of experience, imagination, courage, education, and so on, may take literally anything that is aligned with the dominant mass propaganda, brainwashing, and conditioning.

After all, everything that is not an objective fact, such as a hand is a hand, a hole is a hole, and so on, but is relentlessly and even aggressively propagated here, there, and everywhere IS mass propaganda, brainwashing, and conditioning.

Any and all of these have never cared about, and will never care about, any individual and their unique intimate and overall life. I do care, which is why I write such necessary fair warnings. Hopefully, you will recognize and appreciate how complimentary they are. They require a disclaimer for research like yours because it is potentially dangerous, potentially deadly dangerous, as statistically proven since the 1970s!

Hopefully, we can all agree that the one dear life of our fellow males is incomparably more important than any curious research, and that all such must warn them about anything potentially dangerous for them and their radiant Health, strategic interests, fabulous well-being, and bright future.

Anything else is extremely disloyal, deceptive, dark, dangerous, devastating, and even deadly! I sincerely hope that the last thing you are interested in, invested in, or committed to having as a result of your research is anything in that objectively dark direction that has already claimed the Health and even lives of a HUGE number of males since the 1970s!!!

 

[Kazimir]

According to clinical studies, just two weeks without sex, which can be any sex for one's indifferent to what details private parts, automatically and predictably slashes testosterone production!

I must admit, this was something I had never looked into, and didn’t know anything about, so I read a few studies on the topic.

Here’s the trouble: some studies do in fact suggest that orgasm increases testosterone (Purvis et al., 1976). Some studies suggest it lowers testosterone (Jiang et al., 2003; Exton et al., 2001). And others suggest that it has no effect on testosterone at all (Isenmann et al., 2021).
When you see results all over the map like that, it generally implies that there is no correlation. If you study the correlation between freckles and IQ, by random chance, some studies will show freckles indicate higher IQ, and others will show freckles indicate lower IQ, when actually there is no relation between the two — it’s just the luck of the draw based on who’s in your study.

I’m not saying it’s impossible that sex and testosterone levels are related. They may well be. I’m just saying the evidence isn’t very strong, and if they are related, it’s probably not that big of an effect; if it’s caused enough of a decrease in testosterone to cause problems, it would’ve been much easier to detect, and these studies would’ve been had more consistent results.

This has an impact on everything in their dear body, mind, and spirit, whether directly or indirectly. So, after only two weeks on a common sex crash diet for whatever excuse, handwashing, or common brainwashing, a male faces a major biochemical problem with far-reaching consequences!

Testosterone is important for mental health. And sex does have mental health benefits, from lowering cortisol levels to improving sleep.
These same effects can be achieved by just…jacking off, though. Your endocrine system can’t tell the difference between your right hand and a someone else’s. It doesn’t know a hand from a hole either. An orgasm is an orgasm

If it is so frequently caused by an artificial impediment such as "I cannot take advantage of all those safe hands, mouths, and private parts around because they are from the wrong gender," that is irresponsible if not (completely) brainwashed

I’m curious why being strictly hetero/homosexual is artificial brainwashing.
It’s really refreshing to hear an argument that accepts man-on-man action as perfectly natural. But what’s so unnatural about not being interested in one sex or the other? Why do you believe that’s not just a normal state of being?

So, the eternal Objective Reality is still unconcerned about anything intellectual and selective, particularly arbitrary and capricious in bed! It has only cared about whether You, my dear son, and everyone else address and satisfy each of your Objective Needs

I like this bit
It sounds almost religious, and this is a religion I can get behind.

I have done my part to warn those who, like you and me, are prone to intellectualizing everything to make an exception at least for Safe hard sucking, fucking, and cumming because Safe sex and food should NEVER AGAIN be overanalyzed and intellectualized.

While I disagree with your thesis, I commend your motivations. You’re concerned about men’s health, happiness, and wellbeing. I respect that immensely. Too often it’s ignored.

That has occurred precisely as a result of such recently invented labels and propagated narratives…

If you’re talking about hetero/homosexual, those labels have been in widespread use since the 1800s. It’s not a new label by any stretch.
And there have been legal and religious prohibitions on gay sex for thousands of years, so a (albeit forced) heterosexual norm was instantiated, so not new either.

…which can and frequently do divorce them from the eternal objective reality in which there are no sexual labels or anything more and different than various hands, mouths, and private parts

I agree that labels aren’t always helpful, or necessarily reflective of the complexity of real human sexuality.
Don’t let labels stop you from doing what you want to do.

Hopefully, you are aware that far too many fellow males have committed suicide, and continue to commit suicide, around the world, precisely because they end up in some mental dark corner, or worse, because of a common made-up label, narrative, noise, nonsense, and nastiness that is more or less rooted in research and writing like yours!

The male suicide epidemic is an absolute tragedy, and needs to be addressed immediately.
But it’s a complex issue. You can’t truthfully lay the blame at the feet of sexology research, or sexual identity labels, or even low testosterone levels. There are thousands of factors contributing to the high male suicide rate. While labels might be one of them, I’ll need some pretty compelling evidence before I believe that it’s in the top 20.

So, keep doing your research without being too harsh on me…

I don’t mean to be harsh on you. If I come off that way, it’s not my intention. You’re just sharing your thoughts, and I appreciate it.

…or anyone else who genuinely cares to provide a fair warning that you cannot or do not care enough to provide.

Now that’s harsh…

I do care, which is why I write such necessary fair warnings. Hopefully, you will recognize and appreciate how complimentary they are. They require a disclaimer for research like yours because it is potentially dangerous, potentially deadly dangerous, as statistically proven since the 1970s!

I do appreciate your caring and your zeal about men’s health. I just don’t think the evidence that this sort of research is dangerous is very convincing.
I don’t think labels preclude sex that deviates from the label, I’m not convinced that sex is necessary to keep testosterone levels up, and I don’t know what role testosterone levels play in the suicide epidemic anyway.

Hopefully, we can all agree that the one dear life of our fellow males is incomparably more important than any curious research, and that all such must warn them about anything potentially dangerous

This we can agree on. Life is more important than knowledge, and research must be conducted with caution.
I honestly believe, given the information I’ve seen, that I have not done endanger my fellow men.
You’re free to disagree, and your points are all up for people to consider. But as it stands, I don’t feel that I’ve been negligent, incautious, or put anyone in danger.

 

[RealTigerDivalente]

Next week, my Godsend right-hand type of editor M and I must finally start providing a lot of great content for my specialty- the eternal intersection and interdependence of Great Sex And Success on the social media sites for the preliminary Grand Opening of the Tiger DiValente Elite Academy. So, we should not deal with random whatever posts, especially when I am not sure what the other side's intentions are.

Furthermore, you are just another ordinary poor young man content to exist in the middle of nowhere. The first and only thing that strikes me about you is your intellect, though your know-it-all demeanor and writing style remind me of myself when I was younger. So, for better or worse, I see myself in you.

My dear son, pay attention. Overthinking and overanalyzing sexuality-related propaganda labels and narratives is NOT the same as having a real and fulfilling sexual life. Intimate life is not about showing your dick on a forum. Even regular masturbation is a poor substitute for the real thing if you have had at least one real deal experience with a real human being. Our great and wise ancestors all over the world never chose or preferred substitutes over the real deal in AND out of bed!

When it comes to masturbation, almost all modern people, particularly men, are exemplary objective and pragmatic realists. Especially when the real thing is unavailable for whatever reason, excuse, handwashing, or common brainwashing. They clearly see that masturbating and getting some much-needed Safe Pleasure is far preferable to grinding teeth, suffering in silence, and going to bed (almost) every day without any stimulation whatsoever, with all the dire consequences that entails in AND out of bed.

However, most people only allow themselves to go so far. Why? Because of the prevalent mass propaganda, brainwashing, and conditioning that has planted like vegetables limiting beliefs in their mindset. As an illustration...

"NO, NO, NO!" I cannot even look at a fellow male's private parts because it would imply that something is seriously wrong with me, or at least with my masculinity!!! I am a proud 101% heterosexual man!!! So, using any Safe male hands, mouths, or private parts to address and satisfy my objective need for Safe Pleasure down there is out of the question! Oh my God! I cannot allow "them" to corrupt me or any other good, moral, and straight person and turn us into the same degraded and despicable hellbound sinners! Period.”

"NO, NO, NO!" I cannot possibly sleep with any woman even once because I am an out, loud, and proud parading GAY!!! They never do anything with females!!! Otherwise, I will have to change my label, which is EVERYTHING FOR ME!!!!!!!!!! When I came out of my closet, I did the only "good," "right," and "acceptable" thing: I told everyone and their dog on the planet that I am GAY!!!!!!! So, everyone and their dog assumes I am only interested in dicks and male butts! Oh, my Nogod! I cannot possibly provide "them" with ammunition to prove them right that being "GAY" is a "choice"! We must remain strong and relentlessly reinforce our propaganda narrative that we are born this way and cannot help but be and do so in AND out of bed. So, NO pussies or female holes for me or any other GAY! Period.”

"Except for those rare few traitors sitting like Humpty Dumpty on the barricades in our culture war, both sides completely disagree on everything in AND out of bed." How dare they have the scandalous liberty of enjoying pussies without being one of "us"? How dare they enjoy butt stuff if they are not one of "them"? Everyone must obviously view all of those on the barricades with suspicion because they cannot possibly be good, decent, reliable, and responsible people and partners. Especially if they are shockingly happy or fine doing everything with everyone as if to confirm that they are all extremely immoral traitors to both "us" and "them. Shame on them!"

Enough said. You can now overanalyze everything.

 

[RealTigerDivalente]

If that is not enough for your powerful intellect, here are 33 references to clinical studies to learn a lot more about testosterone and how various factors affect it. For example, real active sex is distinct from mere orgasm, which is distinct from passive lazy masturbation.



Seeley, R.R., T.D. Stephens and P. Tate (1998). Anatomy and Physiology (4th edition). WCB McGraw-Hill.

Arnold, A.M. et al. Journal of Endocrinology. 150, 291-399, 1996.

Beato, M. Cell. 56, 335-344, 1989.

Norman, A.W. and G. Litwack (1987). Hormones. Academic Press, Inc.

Berg, J. Cell. 57, 1065-1068, 1989.

Braunstien, G.D. in Basic and Clinical Endocrinology, Greenspan F.S. and Strewler G.J. eds. Appleton and Lange, Stanford CT, 403-433, 1997.

Bullock, L.P. et al. Endocrinology. 94, 746-748, 1974.

Casaburi, R., T. Storer and S. Bhasin (1996). Androgen Effects on Body Composition and Muscle Performance. In: Pharmacology, Biology, and Clinical Applications of Androgens (Bhasin et al. Eds), Wiley-Liss.

Hurel SJ, et al. Relationship of physical exercise and ageing to growth hormone production. Clin Endocrinol (Oxf) 1999 Dec;51(6):687-91.

Chang, C. et al. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA, 85: 7211-7215, 1988.

Christiansen, K. in Testosterone Action, Deficiency, and Substitution, Nieschlag, E. and Behre, H.M. eds. Springer-Verlag, New York, 107-142, 1998.

Culig, Z. et al. World J Urol. 13, 285-289, 1995.

Dahlberg, E. et al. Endocrinol. 108, 1431-36, 1981.

Colker, C.M., J. Antonio and D. Kalman. The metabolism of orally ingested 19-nor-4-androstene-3, 17-dione and 19-nor-4-androstene-3, 17-diol in healthy, resistance-trained man. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 15(1): 144-147, 2001.

Marks, D.B., A.D. Marks and C. Smith (1996). Basic Medical Biochemistry. Williams and Wilkins.

Danhaive, P.A. and Rousseau, G.G. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 24, 481-487, 1986.

Danhaive, P.A. and Rousseau, G.G. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 29, 575-581, 1988.

Evans, R.M. Science. 240, 889-893, 1988.

Fang, Y. et al. J Biol Chem. 271 (45), 28697-28702, 1996.

Freedman, L.P. Endocr Rev. 13, 129-145, 1992.

Gouras GK, et al. Testosterone reduces neuronal secretion of Alzheimer's beta-amyloid peptides. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 2000 Feb 1;97(3):1202-5

Guyton, A.C. (1991). Textbook of Medical Physiology (8th edition). W.B. Saunders

Gloyna, R.E. and Wilson, J.D. J Clin Endocrinol. 29, 970-973, 1969.

Grino, P.B. et al. Endocrinol. 120, 1914-1920, 1987.

Saartok, T. Int J Sports Med. 5, 130-136, 1984.

Hsiao, P.W. J Biol Chem. 32, 22373-22379, 1999.

Laio, S. et al. J Steroid Biochem. 34, 41-51, 1989.

Jenster, G. et al. Biochem J. 293, 761-768, 1993.

Peterziel, H. et al. In Verhoeven, G., and Swinnen, J.V. Molecular and Cellular Endocrinology. 151, 205-212, 1999.

Hickson, R.C. et al. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 22, 331-340, 1990.

Gustafsson, J. et al. In Hormones and Cancer, Gurpide, E. et al. eds. Alan R. Liss, Inc. New York, 261-290, 1984.

Kadi, F. et al. Histochem Cell Biol. 113, 25-29, 2000.

Yeh, S. et al. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA. 93 (11), 5517-5521, 1996.

 

[cuteboyinlv]

At least younger males like you and me need more good advice and less overthinking, overanalyzing, and over philosophizing. I will take Special Daddy’s Divalente advice any time over your dry and useless theorizing! That is why he just won a follower! I do not know what you win from what you write and for the benefit of whom you write it.

 

[Kazimir]

If that is not enough for your powerful intellect...

Unfortunately, your counterargument fails to address any of the four major issues I raised in my previous post:

1. The medical evidence supporting the claim that sex increases testosterone is, at best, weak and, at worst, nonexistent.
2. The regulation of sexual preference is not a recent phenomenon from the 1970s but has existed for thousands of years.
3. The language individuals use to describe their sexual behavior does not dictate their actions.
4. There is insufficient evidence to support the idea that testosterone levels are a significant factor in male suicide rates.

Instead of addressing these points, you merely restate your position while simultaneously characterizing straight men as hyper-conservative religious zealots and gay men as shallow individuals obsessed with labels and politics above all else.

You continue to label biological determinism as propaganda without presenting any evidence to support your claims. You argue that there is a mass global conspiracy to create restrictive labels to make men's lives worse and possibly even kill them for...no apparent reason. And yet, unlike the billions of people who have been fooled and manipulated, you claim to see through the lies. According to you, all the scientists who have been studying this issue for the past century are nothing but propagandists. But you've seen the light, and if all these "gay" guys just got over themselves and fucked some pussy, they'd see the light too.

Perhaps I misunderstand, but it sounds an awful lot like the old "sexuality is a choice" myth, which is far more dangerous than anything I've said.

"Your sexuality is wrong. This is the true, correct, natural way for a man to be. Let me help you unlearn your ways. You can be fixed. Improved. Made whole."
This has the ring of conversion therapy to it.

If you're already pansexual (or whatever the labelless term for pansexual is): great! Have an awesome time. Fuck as many people as you can.
But if you're going to come into a gay forum just to say that gay people are simply brainwashed, that being gay is dangerous, that it's unhealthy, and that they need to be corrected, I don't care if you want us to be straight/pan/ace/whatever — you'd better be able to back it up with something stronger than a worldview.

...here are 33 references to clinical studies to learn a lot more about testosterone and how various factors affect it. For example, real active sex is distinct from mere orgasm, which is distinct from passive lazy masturbation.

I must say, I was quite surprised by this bundle of studies. I did take a peek at the references you provided me with, at least the first half dozen or so. Two of them were massive college textbooks, with no hints on how they related to the points you were making. The other studies were all behind paywalls, so I couldn't even access them to see what they were about.

From the excerpts I was able to read for free, it seemed like they were highly technical biochemistry papers, mostly discussing how proteins attach to DNA. From what I saw, limited though it may be, they didn't even mention the word "testosterone." Even if they did, it wouldn't prove much beyond the fact that testosterone has some important functions in the body, which I don't think was ever in dispute. While I appreciate your attempt to support your argument, I couldn't help but notice that your citations weren't quite relevant to our discussion. Perhaps you posted the wrong ones in error?

Of course, I could also entertain the thought that you were attempting to overwhelm me with an avalanche of information in an effort to appear more credible. But I have too much faith in your integrity to believe that to be the case.

Nonetheless, I must mention that I was a bit surprised by your omission of annotations. Might I kindly suggest that in the future, you provide the necessary explanations to allow us to determine what these studies purportedly say? Since you know these sources well, we could all benefit from your expert summary.

Next week, my Godsend right-hand type of editor M and I must finally start providing a lot of great content for my specialty- the eternal intersection and interdependence of Great Sex And Success on the social media sites for the preliminary Grand Opening of the Tiger DiValente Elite Academy. So, we should not deal with random whatever posts, especially when I am not sure what the other side's intentions are.

Well, since you're busy with more important things, I won't take up anymore time on this random whatever post.
It's been interesting talking to you. Good luck with your project

 

[Kazimir]

At least younger males like you and me need more good advice and less overthinking, overanalyzing, and over philosophizing. I will take Special Daddy’s Divalente advice any time over your dry and useless theorizing! That is why he just won a follower! I do not know what you win from what you write and for the benefit of whom you write it.

I am delighted to hear that you have found a role model in Special Daddy Divalente. Perhaps you can join his Elite Academy when it's up and running. As for me, while I respect your desire for guidance, I prefer to rely on my own judgment. I believe it's unwise to accept advice from others simply because of their age, particularly when it comes to matters as complex as sexuality.

To your other points: what I "win" is a deeper understanding of life, sex, and the human experience. That seems worthwhile enough to me. I'm not looking for disciples, or prestige, or whatever, so it doesn't upset me not to get them. Just trying to learn.
And, might I say, theorizing is only useless if one lacks the creativity to apply it practically. Atomic theory came before the first nuclear power plant, and germ theory before the first antibiotic. Knowledge, in itself, is never useless.

Now I'll ask you a question: if you're 80% straight, why are you here posting in the "Ask a Gay Man" forum?

 

[RealTigerDivalente]

It is common and expected for someone in the middle of a spectrum to be criticized and even attacked from both extreme ends exactly for not being extreme enough for both extreme ends. GAYS who think and view their side and "them" are less mentally entrenched than "straight" people.

Straight people do not have to think as hard. My main and practically only objection, my dear son, is that you and everyone else with any extreme label, such as "straight" or "GAY," are not pragmatic. That is all there is to it!

You, for example, use the gay label. All right. It restricts you to male hands, mouths, and private parts on a local, national, and international scale. But who has promised YOU that you will ever have access to and enjoy such a thing even once? WHO?

Another male on this general web site may use the label "straight." All right. It automatically and severely restricts him to female hands, mouths, and private parts throughout the world. Who has promised him that he will even see and sniff once something like this in objective reality?

Do you realize, my dear son, that anyone who allows themselves to be severely limited in this way allows themselves to be taken away from the eternal Objective Reality where there are simply different hands, mouths, and private parts that are Safe, accessible, available, and good enough to be used by you and everyone else every time, every place, and every day?

The only rational, real, and justified question is, "Are YOU going to take full advantage of them most Gratefully, or will you obsessively fixate on some recently invented label?" Whatever extreme it takes you and then plants you like a tree there with all the dire consequences such as the so frequently slashed or ended Safe possibilities, opportunities, and options to get even one small forgetful blowjob!

I genuinely care about your intimate life and the intimate life of everyone else who is interested in having one. All of the propaganda labels have been tested and proven to be major impediments to being an objective and pragmatic realist, as our great ancestors were for millennia.

They never allowed any label to stop, block, obstruct, resist, or prevent them from using whatever they could to avoid needless struggling, suffering, and agonizing in silence in AND out of bed because once started, it could easily and most likely continue for the rest of their soiled, if not ruined, lives, as it has done so frequently since the 1970s.

"Am I going to prioritize higher some label or to get and enjoy Safe Pleasure every time, every place, and every day I feel Objective Need for such?" you and everyone with an extreme label face.

Everything else is pure theorizing and propaganda in which I have lost all interest. I am already an objective and pragmatic realist, and this is what I will gently encourage everyone to switch to as being eternally and undeniably superior to everything else.

 

[RealTigerDivalente]

I just realized where the main difference or misunderstanding in how you understand and interpret what I have written so far stems from. Consider a Safe opportunity for you, my dear son, to receive a Safe blowjob from a female. You appear to believe that I am pushing some straight propaganda narrative that YOU MUST take advantage of or there is something "bad," "wrong," or "unacceptable" with you.

There is nothing like that! "Why not?" is all I ask. Will YOU really allow some newly created label to stop, block, obstruct, resist, and/or prevent YOU from addressing and satisfying your Objective Need for some Safe Pleasure immediately and safely, Yes or No?"

If you deny, dismiss, or ignore one such Safe opportunity, what will prevent YOU, my dear son, from doing the same countless times more? This can easily result in the nonexistent asexual life for most males that has been so common in more western countries since the 1970s, regardless of what label is used and advertised around.

As a strictly objective and pragmatic realist, I only ask myself, you, and others: "Are we going to take full advantage of any and all Safe, Rich, and Responsible, especially Win-Win possibilities, opportunities, and options that come our way in AND out of bed because not a single one is promised to us, Yes or No?" That is all there is to it, my dear son. Think about it.

(If you used the opposite extreme label "straight," I would ask you the same question about Safe male hands, mouth, and private parts. Would YOU really just wave your hand to such a Safe opportunity and freely choose to grind teeth and go to bed hungry for even one Safe blowjob? Only because you blindly believe that anything not provided by a female is so "bad," "wrong," and "unacceptable" according to prevalent mass propaganda, brainwashing, and conditioning?

After all, as our wise ancestors knew or quickly discovered, a hand is a hand, a mouth is a mouth, a Safe blowjob is a Safe blowjob, and Safe Pleasure is Safe Pleasure, at least in eternal Objective Reality. Everything else is irrelevant and insignificant because it is only important for a pregnancy or propaganda Target Goal!

 

[RealTigerDivalente]

You are the only one who reads everything I write and discusses everything here. I am Grateful for that special attention. In fact, Kazimir, I believe you are the ideal (candidate) elite student for my upcoming Tiger DiValente Elite Academy. There is nothing elitist about me or will ever be. For example, you must be already successful or come from a wealthy family.

No, because over 80% of the world's successful people are self-made success stories. This is primarily for those who want to become (even more) successful in their own right.

The earliest date will be Thursday, and you will notice an amazing avatar as well as a new thread in which M and I will take my guest posts here to a whole new level. So, my dear son, stay tuned! Beyond a shadow of a doubt, the best is yet to come! )

 

[Kazimir]

My main and practically only objection, my dear son, is that you and everyone else with any extreme label, such as "straight" or "GAY," are not pragmatic.

You, for example, use the gay label. All right. It restricts you to male hands, mouths, and private parts.

Do you realize, my dear son, that anyone who allows themselves to be severely limited in this way allows themselves to be taken away from the eternal Objective Reality where there are simply different hands, mouths, and private parts

The only rational, real, and justified question is, "Are YOU going to take full advantage of them most Gratefully, or will you obsessively fixate on some recently invented label?"

For a period of time, I called myself bisexual. It was a simpler, less judged and hated label than being “gay.” It allowed me to avoid disappointing my parents, and kept me safer. I also genuinely found myself attracted to women, but only those who embodied masculine traits. I said: “I just have bad luck — all the girls I’m into turn out to be lesbians.” It wasn’t untrue. For a while, this was comfortable enough.

Then, one fateful day, I was with a girl who wanted me. A lot. She was beautiful, but very feminine — not at all the kind of girl I was into — but I thought: “Why not?” Without knowing it, I followed your advice, and we had sex.

The sex itself was fine, but the aftermath was something else entirely. Immediately, I felt sick. Wrong. Defiled. I locked myself in the bathroom and cried on the floor. Something deep inside me was screaming out in anguish for what I had done. I didn’t even want to look at her. It took me days to recover.

If you have an exclusive preference (gay or straight), that’s what it feels like to break it. That’s when I had to accept that I was actually gay — not bi in any meaningful sense. This was a painful thing to do, as it meant taking on a more stigmatized label that would attract more people to hate me. But I couldn’t truthfully say that I was interested in women when only one in a thousand manly women actually piqued my interest.

The sexuality came first. The label came after. It’s not a word I cling to to be political, to show pride, or to stand out. And it’s not something I took on lightly without serious, deep contemplation. It was something I was forced to accept, at great personal risk, because fighting against the truth was futile and made me miserable. Once I knew, deep down and for certain, what my sexuality was, that was a bell that could not be unrung.

You can tell me, and people like me, that we’re deluded. That we should just get over ourselves and have sex with women, too. But I can promise you: it’s not the same for me as it is for you. It wouldn’t be a beautiful, joyful, fulfilling experience. It would be dark and terrible, leaving me feeling broken and ashamed. I know it’s hard for someone who hasn’t felt these feelings to understand, but the truth is, you can’t reason us out of our sexuality. Believe me, many of us have wished that were possible. But the fact remains: it’s not something you can just get over with a simple change of mindset or attitude. And it’s much, much deeper than words or labels.

But what about that one in a thousand women?
Well, it’s their masculinity I’m attracted to.
Does that still make you “gay”?
I’m not sure.
Is that typical of gay guys?
I don’t know. ɪꜰ ᴏɴʟʏ ꜱᴏᴍᴇᴏɴᴇ ᴡᴏᴜʟᴅ ꜱᴛᴜᴅʏ ᴛʜᴀᴛ.

 

[Kazimir]

I started that post before either of your last two were posted, but I’m a slow writer so I didn’t see yours until now.
If my last post seems to ignore yours, that’s why. Not intentional.

You appear to believe that I am pushing some straight propaganda narrative that YOU MUST take advantage of or there is something "bad," "wrong," or "unacceptable" with you.

There is nothing like that! "Why not?" is all I ask. Will YOU really allow some newly created label to stop, block, obstruct, resist, and/or prevent YOU from addressing and satisfying your Objective Need for some Safe Pleasure immediately and safely, Yes or No?"

Duly noted.
I think there may be a couple of other differences that I laid out in my last post, but I concede that I had a stricter, harsher interpretation of your philosophy than you may have intended.

(If you used the opposite extreme label "straight," I would ask you the same question about Safe male hands, mouth, and private parts.

I appreciate the egalitarianism ^^

The earliest date will be Thursday, and you will notice an amazing avatar as well as a new thread in which M and I will take my guest posts here to a whole new level. So, my dear son, stay tuned! Beyond a shadow of a doubt, the best is yet to come! )

I’m looking forward to seeing it! Will be watching for that. Or, to use a disgusting English idiom, I’ll keep my eyes peeled.

 

[RealTigerDivalente]

I am also excited to have found someone who is so similar to me from decades ago, which has both positive and negative aspects. It will be challenging for die-hard perfectionists like us to communicate, but it will be worth it. We have a lot to share, but there are not many people who are interested in what we have to say.

My truly God-sent right-hand type of dedicated volunteer editor and social media accounts manager M is a huge blessing to me. Who knows. You could be a blessing in disguise too. Nothing occurs accidentally, especially when it comes to major and influential events like the acceleration of my Grand Vision for the DiValente Virtual Elite World, of which the Tiger DiValente Elite Academy is only the beginning.

My truest Mission in life, I believe, is to earn and deserve to be remembered as Grand Founder Tiger DiValente. Nobody will remember me unless I leave a truly remarkable legacy. So, for the last several years, I have been working day and night on this, and M has been volunteering as a Committed early pioneer for nearly two years.

Everything has happened so slowly up to this point, but we are finally ready for the next level! I had to learn the hard way that some things take time and cannot be rushed, no matter how badly I want them to. I am delighted to be communicating with you and more directly, my dear son. Public conversations are not always the best option.