Schrödinger’s rapist

[Enid]

I just stumbled across this term, and found this blog. It's a really cool perspective from the woman angle of things.

For me, it hit home because of my love of going out alone and reading. I cannot even begin to count the number of men who approach me to talk about what I'm reading. It gets so tiresome, ESPECIALLY when I'm throwing off signals left and right to leave me alone -- I'm reading! And it's particularly irksome because you know, you want to be kind. You want to be polite. It's been ingrained in most of us from the get go. But if we are crossing our arms, shifting, looking away...then someone needs to take a hint class.

Not only that, but I am SO TIRED of the rhetoric that we should be grateful for the attention, because one day we won't get any.

https://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/...pproaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/

 

[LaFemme]

Excellent article. One thing I really hope guys think about, is how each one of them knows a rapist. Each one. We all do. The casual-he-over-powered-her-on-a-date-or-at-a-party kind of rapist at the very least. Maybe if they think hard enough, they might have done it themselves. No one has to admit it here, but at least admit it to yourself. Recognize it and never do it again. Don’t victim blame. Don’t defend the guys who have done it.

Yeah, we all know one. Like or love one. Work with one, live with one. So let’s educate one. If she says ‘no’, that’s what it means; if she’s too drunk or high to say ‘yes’, that means ‘no’. Passed out means ‘no’; doing it because you’re her boss means ‘no’.

 

[deleted924715]

I thought that the article was really good, the comments too. Problem is, it resonates with women and the men who get it already, the men who don't (not even counting the predators) are proving to be pretty impervious if this site is anything to go by. The entitlement is real.

Brilliant link, I just hope the thread doesn't take the usual turn

 

[LaFemme]

Sometimes I just don’t understand why it’s so difficult for some men to get how not to be creepy or rapey:

1. Don’t have sex with drunk or high people. They cannot consent. Especially if you don’t know them. Don’t get them drunk or high for that purpose. Don’t be so drunk or high yourself that you make bad decisions.

2. If someone is passed out, don’t have sex with them.

3. Don’t flash people. Don’t send unsolicited nudes.

4. Don’t stalk people. After being turned down, give up. If you’re in the “friend zone”, give up. Romance movies are wrong. She/he doesn’t want you turning up every where. It’s criminal and scary.

5. If you’re in a position of power (boss, supervisor, cop, doctor etc.) do not ask out, proposition, make sexual comments, or in any way sexualize your subordinate. It is sexual harassment. Even if they “consent”, it may be out of fear and therefore rape.

6. Don’t engage in locker room talk. What comes out of your mouth is what becomes true in your brain. Rapey creepy talk turns you into a rapey creepy thinker and into rapey creepy actions.

It’s not brain surgery. It’s about respect for people. Stay in control. Be an adult. Communicate with people.

 

[Nudistpig]

I don't think the majority of men are rapists or that they wish they could rape women, nor did I say anything of the sort. That's coming from other people, but not me. Your bringing it up when responding to me seems to be either a deflection or attempted distraction from what I said when I quoted your post.

I do think you're being dismissive, insultingly so, about the amount of women who have been sexually assaulted. It is not in any way a small number. Having spoken with the majority of people I know, a significant to majority amount of women they know are sexual assault survivors. And yes, I've talked about this with them, given the Me Too movement, all the shit in Hollywood, etc.

But let's be really clear setting the bar at 'rapist' is a deliberate ploy when expressed by those skeptical of the frequency of assault. Of course not all men are full blown rapists just as most people are not kleptomaniacs but we don't draw the line for theft at mania. We draw it at the act of thievery. A man who steals a car once in his life isn't a car theif. It's not accurate to define his life by that one act. But neither is he absolved of stealing that car and after forever it's a great idea to be really careful around him with unsecured automobiles. He has the potential. Sex assaults are far far more sensitive and far less clean cut but the essential facts remain. Men who violate women, even once, even if it's not rape are still responsible and still potentially dangerous... No matter how kind or nice or professional. And it's the height of folly to ask any woman who has been sexually assaulted to think otherwise. In many cases she knows his weakness viscerally without having to be told. Men display these failings daily when they repeat rape jokes, express that dress is cause, deny some assault is all that bad, or that it simply isn't common.

 

[deleted924715]

We may be entering a season or mini-era of romance where many guys, afraid of the merest gesture which might be interpreted as assault

You realise that you are implying that women are crying assault over tiny gestures? Giving us a cautionary tale along the lines of a mass hysteria has taken hold and we will all be sorry because we'll be the losers in the end. I am so tired of this.

May I suggest that the fact that you analyse feedback and take into account the verbal and non-verbal cues thrown off by the women you date and do not override these signals that you aren't the problem?

We aren't talking ambiguous signals here, we are talking about a strange woman on the train with her forehead practically touching her book to avoid interacting with you, a woman in a bar who pulls her arm away when you touch it, a woman saying "no" or physically trying to prevent you from touching her intimately - the amount of men that carry on beyond these points is staggering. We are not looking to dissect every male/female interaction and find an assault. We are not talking about women communicating their desires through blinked morse code here.

 

[AlteredEgo]

We need to look at what some men call feigned resi

My Uber passenger kissed me Friday night. He put his wet, stranger-mouth on mine. Just a little peck, but the most disgusting half a second of my entire month. His confusion over my anger seemed genuine. This was too minor a thing for me to slash his throat over, though I'll admit I considered it.

How's this for something men don't know about what it is like to be a woman? I hugged him after. Of all the choices I had for getting rid of him without risking that he would harm me further, that was the one that didn't involve me cleaning up his blood or calling police (which comes with it's own race based distastefulness). I hugged him. Twice. I actually got up out of my car to do this. And when his hand went below the small of my back I simply walked away before he could violate me again, a measure which may have saved his life, and kept me from ruining mine.

Men. Y'all don't fucking know.

 

[LaFemme]

I appreciate your reply. I'm not sure I agree with it. My experience, put succinctly, is that it's usually men who physically progress the relationships, taking cues from the women, but that the same cue from two different women can mean two very different things. Example: a guy dates Woman A, they start kissing, they get into it, and she basically pulls him down on her into a full body hug as they kiss. Her legs pull his hips into hers tight, and grinding can't help but happen. He guesses that he can progress to PIV sex -- and in this case he's right. But then, sometime later, he dates Woman B, and the same setup happens: kissing, heavy kissing, body hug, grindy grindy. So he proceeds to move to her breasts, and she stops him dead -- that's not what she meant at all. She just wants to kiss-grindy-grindy, thinks that a fine level to reach and stay at, is offended that he wanted to go further. He is put in time-out while she sorts things out, and he may be categorized as an animal unworthy of further attention.

I've dated both these women.

Have you thought thought about whispering in her ear, “are we about to have sex?” Or something else along those lines? Communication. She’ll either say ‘yes, oh, yes’ or giggle and say ‘no, just having fun’.

 

[MickeyLee]

I assume all men are rapists. It's costing me a small fortune in pepper spray and legal fees *sigh*

 

[MickeyLee]

you know a woman who has been assaulted and you know a man who has assaulted a woman.
that is a sad fact of life. pray this next generation of go-getter gets it right.

 

[MickeyLee]

we're programmed to forgive and find the good in horrible men. I take comfort in knowing the boy's exes. That he is still on friendly terms with his ex-lovers is comforting to me. I know who he is. How he goes about his relationships. He is very caring and protective. His love is demonstrated by actions and acceptance. *gets all shmoopy* he's is a cinnamon roll too precious for this world. Pardom me while i smother him in kissed and affection.

 

[LaFemme]

1 in 3 women; 1 in 6 men - and that’s kind of a conservative estimate.

It has nothing to do with feminism. Perhaps nothing to do with predators. Opportunistic behaviour, bad judgment, lowered inhibitions, maybe. Maybe a man only did it once in his life. Most men who have sexually assaulted do not get accused or charged. Their conscience is clear the next day. Only the victim feels the hurt. And they will do almost anything to make it go away. To make it feel normal.

My assaulters are now fathers. Living life. Married and, I presume, happy. What they did to me, I hope never happens to one of their daughters. While I think of them often, I doubt they think of me at all.

 

[deleted924715]

Generally I agree, but a clock is always right twice a day. Seems to me this was one of the few cases where they made some good points.

You understand, logically speaking, even if the majority of women had been sexually assaulted (i.e. the number were actually over 1 in 2), that this would not suggest that the majority of men are predators?

Do you understand that assuming they are until proven that they aren't keeps a woman safer than the other way around and that most women (at least women that I know) understand and practice this principle because the stakes are too high if you get it wrong?

What does 33% wary as opposed to 25% wary as opposed to 50% wary even look like? How does a woman navigate that? I don't think the majority of men are abusers (at least I hope they aren't) but my guard is up like its 100% because been there, done that and my safety comes before a third party's desire for intellectual debate.

I'm not sure what you are hoping to achieve arguing statistics when sexual assault is chronically under-reported and you are attempting to refute first hand knowledge. If 70% of MickeyLee's circle have been sexually assaulted by men, do you think your dodgy statistics will change her preception of men as predators? Should they - would she be safer if it did?

Did you really come in here to take the "not all men" route? Don't get me wrong, I saw it coming but I had other culprits in mind. I'm not sure where you're going with this.

 

[MickeyLee]

1 in 3 women; 1 in 6 men - and that’s kind of a conservative estimate.

It has nothing to do with feminism. Perhaps nothing to do with predators. Opportunistic behaviour, bad judgment, lowered inhibitions, maybe. Maybe a man only did it once in his life. Most men who have sexually assaulted do not get accused or charged. Their conscience is clear the next day. Only the victim feels the hurt. And they will do almost anything to make it go away. To make it feel normal.

My assaulters are now fathers. Living life. Married and, I presume, happy. What they did to me, I hope never happens to one of their daughters. While I think of them often, I doubt they think of me at all.

For what it's worth i would gut the bastards for you, Ms. Femme.
*hugs*

 

[693987]

How about we take a critical eye at the data instead of relying just on your anecdotes? One of the few Huffpo articles in recent times I've been impressed by:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/brian-earp/1-in-4-women-how-the-late_b_8191448.html

I'm not a feminist, I'm a "shit should be equal" kinda person. The majority of women I know have been sexually assaulted. Myself included. Most of us didn't ever report it. Also, Huffington Post is especially garbage journalism.

 

[693987]

Generally I agree, but a clock is always right twice a day. Seems to me this was one of the few cases where they made some good points.

You understand, logically speaking, even if the majority of women had been sexually assaulted (i.e. the number were actually over 1 in 2), that this would not suggest that the majority of men are predators?

I don't think the majority of men are rapists or that they wish they could rape women, nor did I say anything of the sort. That's coming from other people, but not me. Your bringing it up when responding to me seems to be either a deflection or attempted distraction from what I said when I quoted your post.

I do think you're being dismissive, insultingly so, about the amount of women who have been sexually assaulted. It is not in any way a small number. Having spoken with the majority of people I know, a significant to majority amount of women they know are sexual assault survivors. And yes, I've talked about this with them, given the Me Too movement, all the shit in Hollywood, etc.

 

[deleted924715]

Yes, indeed. If the "most men are predators" attitude really catches on socially and is extended, despite the fact that I'm predominantly homosexual, I would nonetheless be treated as constantly suspect simply be virtue of being a man. Heck, recent data is starting to indicate that homosexuals are overrepresented among child molesters, so maybe I'd be constantly suspected of that as well! You don't see how that could, especially when instantiated in the criminal justice system, could turn very sour, potentially much worse even than simply having a segment of the male population being predators?

No. I emphatically don't. Speaking as someone who as been 'preyed upon'.

First you extrapolate MickeyLee's comment beyond all recognition and then insist your entirely hypothetical future is a bigger issue than actual abuse taking place now, because hey, "simply having a segment of the male population being predators" is what? Acceptable? Maybe if it affected you more you would feel differently. But since you are talking out of your arse, your opinion is irrelevant anyway.

 

[AlteredEgo]

Imagined? Of course. Anything that has not yet come to pass is imagined. But sometimes imaginary things to come to pass. Future events can be predicted, sometimes accurately, on the basis of the trajectory of recent and past events.

Some nebulous future isn't as important as the present reality. My present reality? Over the span of 72 hours, one man kissed me against my will and I had to hug him, press my body against his TWICE, to get him to go away, another man threatened me first with a hatchet, then with a gun while I was out of my vehicle and unarmed, and the police did nothing, and another man broke into my car (and a few others) while I slept in my playmate's bed. I'm feeling extremely wary of new dudes right now. Extremely.

I don't give a fart about your hysteria over imaginary dystopian timelines. Every real danger I have ever faced has been because of some guy. And here's the thing. I'm not a small woman. I don't present like a mark-ass bitch. I project every ounce of the confidence I nearly always feel. I know how to fight, shoot, and where to plunge a blade. I have the self-assurance that comes from choking one assailant, and stabbing another, and getting away more or less unscathed. Yet I STILL get targeted. So what of the small woman who has no training, and who has never successfully defended herself, and has low self-esteem? How much static is SHE catching if I'm catching this much? This I care about, because it is real to me.

I suppose your make-believe world is real to you. But you should fuck right off with it. Honestly. A significant percentage of men are doing significant harm to women every fucking day that ends in 'y'. Men have been predatory towards me since before my first period, and I have yet to meet a woman who doesn't say the same is true for her. You don't understand this reality, or how it teaches a woman to discern and hesitate, but it is here, and it is now. So, it is important. Your speculations are ridiculous in the face of legal systems that punish women for having been raped, that don't believe women when they ask for protection from a man who has harmed her, that don't arrest male assailants, and certainly don't try them, almost never convict them, and inappropriately give them minimal punishment. THAT, is real, and present-tense.

Really? Men are going to be opressed? Shit. Sign me up to be a monkey's uncle.

I'm taking an LPSG sabbatical. Y'all be well.

 

[MickeyLee]

Just like all women are whores. I mean they have a pussy so we must assume...right?

Male privilege means you don't get to make that joke without looking like an asshole.

really... rape vs promiscuity. false equivalency to the extreme. one a dehumanizing assault on a human being. the other a free expression of healthy sexuality.

and you kinda proved my point.

 

[AlteredEgo]

I talk to a lot of women who reject the fact they are in love with predators. They always defend them. Their families and friends defend them. You know what they say? “I know him.” Well, guess what. You don’t.

I think it’s easier to accept knowing a assaultee than an assaulter. Like you, Ms Lee, I hope this next gen gets it better.

My mother always said she didn't know what she might do in the next half an hour, and therefore refused to swear for the actions of anyone else, including me. I practice the same principle.