Young Gays Staying In The Closet In A Liberal Environment?

[bigboaster]

Disclaimer: I am not suggesting that anyone should be forced out of the closet nor am I suggesting that people should come out when they're not ready. This is just a post asking for opinions without judgement.

What are your thoughts on closeted gay/bi men (millennial/gen Z specifically) who remain in the closet despite living with a more liberal accepting family/friend group and also live in a fairly progressive city.

I'm just curious because I've never really understood what the reasoning or logic would be. My bets guess is just that they haven't "come out to themselves yet" or something like that?

I guess just from my perspective the only reason for the closet at all would be due to external consequences no?

 

[Brodie888]

Yes we generally do live in a more secular, liberal, tolerant society than previous generations but as stated, that is a generalisation.

There are still very large pockets of conservative people. It also isn't as simple for closeted people to just move either. There's history with family and friends.

Then there is internalized homophobia where they know they are gay but choose to live a heterosexual lifestyle for religious or whatever reason.

I don't think it's the best way to live but I can understand why closeted people do it.

 

[Jkus2424]

Disclaimer: I am not suggesting that anyone should be forced out of the closet nor am I suggesting that people should come out when they're not ready. This is just a post asking for opinions without judgement.

What are your thoughts on closeted gay/bi men (millennial/gen Z specifically) who remain in the closet despite living with a more liberal accepting family/friend group and also live in a fairly progressive city.

I'm just curious because I've never really understood what the reasoning or logic would be. My bets guess is just that they haven't "come out to themselves yet" or something like that?

I guess just from my perspective the only reason for the closet at all would be due to external consequences no?

I think there are many reason people stay in tge closet, some internal, but as you infer, probably most are external factors. I know my parents would not have accepted me being bi/gay, but they have now passed. The reason I stay closeted is because the affect it would have on others.

 

[JBrown61]

tl;dr you can still be discriminatory and misinformed even with the best of intentions

IMO, because even though being gay is "accepted" and people don't actively discriminate, it's still not embraced to the extent that being a straight man is. Sure, being gay is fine, but it's not ideal. Having legal same-sex marriage and a few ads featuring gay men doesn't change the fact the ideal vision of masculinity in most of the United States is a straight guy who does "straight guy" stuff. Gay men aren't bad anymore, but they're not the ideal man that men of any orientation want to be.

As a result, many men feel uncomfortable with the idea of coming out, because even though they may not lose their friends, their friends may nonetheless unconsciously perceive them as being inferior than if they were straight. Many people don't realize or consider the possibility they may be gay or bisexual, because then they think they might have to change their lifestyle somehow or start having different hobbies, even if those differences aren't "bad".

I've noticed that many of my straight male friends were plenty accepting and would still hang out and do bro shit together, but they would also start "keeping their guard up" around me once I came out of the closet as bi, and it got so annoying to reassure them every time I talk to them that I'm not hitting on them that I decided it wasn't worth the effort to maintain the friendship anymore. That's the kind of thing many closeted gay/bi dudes I know are afraid of.

 

[bigboaster]

tl;dr you can still be discriminatory and misinformed even with the best of intentions

IMO, because even though being gay is "accepted" and people don't actively discriminate, it's still not embraced to the extent that being a straight man is. Sure, being gay is fine, but it's not ideal. Having legal same-sex marriage and a few ads featuring gay men doesn't change the fact the ideal vision of masculinity in most of the United States is a straight guy who does "straight guy" stuff. Gay men aren't bad anymore, but they're not the ideal man that men of any orientation want to be.

As a result, many men feel uncomfortable with the idea of coming out, because even though they may not lose their friends, their friends may nonetheless unconsciously perceive them as being inferior than if they were straight. Many people don't realize or consider the possibility they may be gay or bisexual, because then they think they might have to change their lifestyle somehow or start having different hobbies, even if those differences aren't "bad".

I've noticed that many of my straight male friends were plenty accepting and would still hang out and do bro shit together, but they would also start "keeping their guard up" around me once I came out of the closet as bi, and it got so annoying to reassure them every time I talk to them that I'm not hitting on them that I decided it wasn't worth the effort to maintain the friendship anymore. That's the kind of thing many closeted gay/bi dudes I know are afraid of.

Ahhh, this was actually a really interesting perspective that I didn't really consider and it makes a lot of sense to me (as sad as that is). Yes you're right. Gays being more accepted now still isn't ideal for many people, even more liberal ones. And even among gays being straight is idealized a lot to this day.

Thanks for the reply, much appreciated

 

[JBrown61]

Ahhh, this was actually a really interesting perspective that I didn't really consider and it makes a lot of sense to me (as sad as that is). Yes you're right. Gays being more accepted now still isn't ideal for many people, even more liberal ones. And even among gays being straight is idealized a lot to this day.

Thanks for the reply, much appreciated

No problem. I think that idolization manifests itself in our fantasies of other men, too. Like, why do we idolize and fetishize "str8" guys so much?

 

[bigboaster]

No problem. I think that idolization manifests itself in our fantasies of other men, too. Like, why do we idolize and fetishize "str8" guys so much?

Yes exactly It's such a complex topic to try to understand from all angles but your post was a great response to my initial query at least so that's one piece of the puzzle done.

 

[Jkus2424]

tl;dr you can still be discriminatory and misinformed even with the best of intentions

IMO, because even though being gay is "accepted" and people don't actively discriminate, it's still not embraced to the extent that being a straight man is. Sure, being gay is fine, but it's not ideal. Having legal same-sex marriage and a few ads featuring gay men doesn't change the fact the ideal vision of masculinity in most of the United States is a straight guy who does "straight guy" stuff. Gay men aren't bad anymore, but they're not the ideal man that men of any orientation want to be.

As a result, many men feel uncomfortable with the idea of coming out, because even though they may not lose their friends, their friends may nonetheless unconsciously perceive them as being inferior than if they were straight. Many people don't realize or consider the possibility they may be gay or bisexual, because then they think they might have to change their lifestyle somehow or start having different hobbies, even if those differences aren't "bad".

I've noticed that many of my straight male friends were plenty accepting and would still hang out and do bro shit together, but they would also start "keeping their guard up" around me once I came out of the closet as bi, and it got so annoying to reassure them every time I talk to them that I'm not hitting on them that I decided it wasn't worth the effort to maintain the friendship anymore. That's the kind of thing many closeted gay/bi dudes I know are afraid of.

Great insights. I agree people subconsciously view you differently. They have their own internal prejudices and subconscious conditioning, and they also have the "what will my friends say or think of me" if I am openly accepting of a gay guy. It must have been difficult being gaupy 40-60 years ago, but today we are still not fully there. Sure some small areas of the country is there, but you go to parts of the conservative south or the wrong Bible belt and come out - good luck

 

[dreambridger]

well, I don't know if I qualify for younger (I'm 32), I grew up with very liberal gay-supportive nonreligious parents, and i still didn't come out for quite a while. However it was only my parents that were accepting. The area I lived in, my schoolmates, etc were not accepting.

If anything, I remember feeling ashamed for being afraid to tell my parents, since they were so accepting. It's like by the time I was in my early twenties, it was like more like I was ashamed for having been in the closet for so long more than being gay.

However, I do remember times I was put down by my parents early on too. I came out to my mom first and said sorry that I stayed in the closet for so long and she told me it was because I internalized my father's fear of humiliation. Though my dad was accepting of the gay lifestyle I think he sort of taught me *not* to express myself early on out of fear of my embarrassment. You can have liberal parents that still have flaws and can still pass down their fears onto you.

Also, one more big element I remember, is that the gays on TV and and in movies and pop culture and the media, and on the gay streets of the city I lived in, which was my only exposure to homosexuality, none of that felt like me. I was being sold a stereotype that I didn't identify with. I really resisted it. Shows like Queer Eye for the Straight Guy kept people like me in the closet because I wasn't like that and there wasn't anything like me to identify with. I definitely liked dudes, but I also liked heavy metal music and gory comic books and martial arts and handguns and fireworks and hockey and normal boy stuff like that, and there wasn't any role models at the time who said you could be that AND gay. It's like you were either a sissy or you weren't gay. I have no idea what it's like for Gen Z folks, but I imagine for them its something similar. there's SO much gay stuff in the media now that gay youth may or may not identify with it and might be repelled by it, which leads them to stay in the closet.

 

[headbang8]

How does one define "in the closet"? My impression is that few GenZ gays try to keep up a straight facade. But in general, GenZ appears far more circumspect in sharing personal stuff—and that includes not making an explicit declaration about sexuality. They're not ashamed, but rather, more reserved.

That has both its upsides and downsides, of course.

 

[bigboaster]

well, I don't know if I qualify for younger (I'm 32), I grew up with very liberal gay-supportive nonreligious parents, and i still didn't come out for quite a while. However it was only my parents that were accepting. The area I lived in, my schoolmates, etc were not accepting.

If anything, I remember feeling ashamed for being afraid to tell my parents, since they were so accepting. It's like by the time I was in my early twenties, it was like more like I was ashamed for having been in the closet for so long more than being gay.

However, I do remember times I was put down by my parents early on too. I came out to my mom first and said sorry that I stayed in the closet for so long and she told me it was because I internalized my father's fear of humiliation. Though my dad was accepting of the gay lifestyle I think he sort of taught me *not* to express myself early on out of fear of my embarrassment. You can have liberal parents that still have flaws and can still pass down their fears onto you.

Also, one more big element I remember, is that the gays on TV and and in movies and pop culture and the media, and on the gay streets of the city I lived in, which was my only exposure to homosexuality, none of that felt like me. I was being sold a stereotype that I didn't identify with. I really resisted it. Shows like Queer Eye for the Straight Guy kept people like me in the closet because I wasn't like that and there wasn't anything like me to identify with. I definitely liked dudes, but I also liked heavy metal music and gory comic books and martial arts and handguns and fireworks and hockey and normal boy stuff like that, and there wasn't any role models at the time who said you could be that AND gay. It's like you were either a sissy or you weren't gay. I have no idea what it's like for Gen Z folks, but I imagine for them its something similar. there's SO much gay stuff in the media now that gay youth may or may not identify with it and might be repelled by it, which leads them to stay in the closet.

Thanks for sharing your story. I understand your perspective

 

[bigboaster]

How does one define "in the closet"? My impression is that few GenZ gays try to keep up a straight facade. But in general, GenZ appears far more circumspect in sharing personal stuff—and that includes not making an explicit declaration about sexuality. They're not ashamed, but rather, more reserved.

That has both its upsides and downsides, of course.

Another good post but in my original post I was defining closet in the most literal sense ie actively claiming to be straight, having relationships with women and such. So not ambiguous at all. But you Did make a very prescient point so thank you and thanks for asking for clarification.

 

[Player_01]

It's an interesting question. I think people can be ok with things 'on paper' but in their actual life with people they know it somehow becomes different.

I know in the Celebrity section we will talk about someone (18-20s even) who came out as queer recently and some of them seem like they should have been ok with their being queer before now, especially if everyone "knows" they are gay. But I guess we never really know what's going on with someone or with their family.

 

[deleted1074483]

as others have inferred having accepting parents is only one aspect to the equation, men supposedly take till their early 20s to fully mature for instance, being in a 'fairly progressive city' is a non sequiter as a city can't be progressive only the people in it and whilst many profess all sorts of liberal credentials whether they deliver is another question. You also have to remember that there are vast numbers of gen z/millennials who do not live in big cities in all countries so can be hard dependent upon your wider social circle and the circumstances of where you live. young people can be shy, unsure, naturally 'keep it to themselves' or whatever - so i don't think that there is any answer to this than let people come out and be who they are as and when they feel comfortable to do so?

 

[bigboaster]

as others have inferred having accepting parents is only one aspect to the equation, men supposedly take till their early 20s to fully mature for instance, being in a 'fairly progressive city' is a non sequiter as a city can't be progressive only the people in it and whilst many profess all sorts of liberal credentials whether they deliver is another question. You also have to remember that there are vast numbers of gen z/millennials who do not live in big cities in all countries so can be hard dependent upon your wider social circle and the circumstances of where you live. young people can be shy, unsure, naturally 'keep it to themselves' or whatever - so i don't think that there is any answer to this than let people come out and be who they are as and when they feel comfortable to do so?

Great reply. Great points and I wholeheartedly agree on your last point especially.

There is no actual answer here for this issue, I really just wanted some wider perspectives and opinions. I have no desire to push anyone out of their closet (mostly since I was in there for most of my teens and early twenties myself albeit not in an accepting environment).

I guess I was coming from the perspective of someone who's grown up in the Caribbean in a religious country where gay sex is literally illegal and coming out was just not even a fleeting thought much less an option lol so I sort of had a bit of resentment for a while some years ago for gays who were privileged enough to grow up/live in a more accepting environment and still chose not to be open about it. Which I have learned since was rather silly and a bit selfish and short sighted of me. Because I couldn't put myself in their shoes mentally.

But I pondered on that idea again recently and still wanted to hear what others might think about it even as I have matured in my view because I don't want to just have my singular narrow view. So that's the inspiration for this post.

 

[dreambridger]

I guess I was coming from the perspective of someone who's grown up in the Caribbean in a religious country where gay sex is literally illegal and coming out was just not even a fleeting thought much less an option lol so I sort of had a bit of resentment for a while some years ago for gays who were privileged enough to grow up/live in a more accepting environment and still chose not to be open about it. Which I have learned since was rather silly and a bit selfish and short sighted of me. Because I couldn't put myself in their shoes mentally.

This helps me see where you're coming from. First I'll say that *legal* and *accepting* aren't always the same thing, and I think the fear of homosexuality is pervasive throughout all of humanity, and there's degrees of how that fear is implemented. In your native country, it may be illegal, and in the US, it was illegal up until the late 60s, which isn't that long ago considering. This stuff runs deep. The largest religion(s) in the world still teach that sodomy will bring fire and brimstone upon your home. This becomes embedded in human psychology, often unconsciously, and is often internalized by gay people themselves. You can't heal centuries of hatred and fear just by passing a law. Legislating freedom of homosexuality is only one step forward and there's much further to go. The real work is within. Instead of seeing your nation's lack of acceptance as a contrast to a more accepting first world, see it as the extreme expression of a homophobia that all humanity is still grappling with on some level. Some nations may be "ahead", but that doesn't mean it's been transcended fully, and there's always the threat of regression in any nation. And while I haven't been in your shoes, I can imagine that with a certain perspective, your experiences could help you find compassion rather than resentment for those struggling with their identity. Maybe their oppressors are within rather than without.

 

[bigboaster]

This helps me see where you're coming from. First I'll say that *legal* and *accepting* aren't always the same thing, and I think the fear of homosexuality is pervasive throughout all of humanity, and there's degrees of how that fear is implemented. In your native country, it may be illegal, and in the US, it was illegal up until the late 60s, which isn't that long ago considering. This stuff runs deep. The largest religion(s) in the world still teach that sodomy will bring fire and brimstone upon your home. This becomes embedded in human psychology, often unconsciously, and is often internalized by gay people themselves. You can't heal centuries of hatred and fear just by passing a law. Legislating freedom of homosexuality is only one step forward and there's much further to go. The real work is within. Instead of seeing your nation's lack of acceptance as a contrast to a more accepting first world, see it as the extreme expression of a homophobia that all humanity is still grappling with on some level. Some nations may be "ahead", but that doesn't mean it's been transcended fully, and there's always the threat of regression in any nation. And while I haven't been in your shoes, I can imagine that with a certain perspective, your experiences could help you find compassion rather than resentment for those struggling with their identity. Maybe their oppressors are within rather than without.

Very well said and quite profound. Wow. Thanks for the contributions here. And no worries I've long left that resentment behind. Precisely due to attitudes like yours from wiser gays than I. Hahaha

Cheers!

 

[deleted1074483]

Great reply. Great points and I wholeheartedly agree on your last point especially.

There is no actual answer here for this issue, I really just wanted some wider perspectives and opinions. I have no desire to push anyone out of their closet (mostly since I was in there for most of my teens and early twenties myself albeit not in an accepting environment).

I guess I was coming from the perspective of someone who's grown up in the Caribbean in a religious country where gay sex is literally illegal and coming out was just not even a fleeting thought much less an option lol so I sort of had a bit of resentment for a while some years ago for gays who were privileged enough to grow up/live in a more accepting environment and still chose not to be open about it. Which I have learned since was rather silly and a bit selfish and short sighted of me. Because I couldn't put myself in their shoes mentally.

But I pondered on that idea again recently and still wanted to hear what others might think about it even as I have matured in my view because I don't want to just have my singular narrow view. So that's the inspiration for this post.

thats really useful background to your question. As @dreambridger said, it really wasn't that long ago that things became legal here in the uk either again only in the 60s, our age of consent parity only changed in the 2000s for instance, and for those of us in our 50s we can still recall that it was incredibly difficult to be 'out' in any way shape or form. We had nothing to look at that told us we were 'normal' and 'acceptable' as humans in our own rights. We had no out role models that told us what we were experiencing was not 'wrong'. Things have moved on hugely and much of the world is far more accepting now and its much easier to be out. But its still a huge thing to accept about yourself that you are 'different' to others (whether gay, bi, queer, or whatever) and even with very accepting parents its still a very individual thing.

 

[sweetglue]

The trick with liberal family/environment is that they people may seem liberal but be conservative in their core.

 

[deleted10699801]

tl;dr you can still be discriminatory and misinformed even with the best of intentions

IMO, because even though being gay is "accepted" and people don't actively discriminate, it's still not embraced to the extent that being a straight man is. Sure, being gay is fine, but it's not ideal. Having legal same-sex marriage and a few ads featuring gay men doesn't change the fact the ideal vision of masculinity in most of the United States is a straight guy who does "straight guy" stuff. Gay men aren't bad anymore, but they're not the ideal man that men of any orientation want to be.

As a result, many men feel uncomfortable with the idea of coming out, because even though they may not lose their friends, their friends may nonetheless unconsciously perceive them as being inferior than if they were straight. Many people don't realize or consider the possibility they may be gay or bisexual, because then they think they might have to change their lifestyle somehow or start having different hobbies, even if those differences aren't "bad".

I've noticed that many of my straight male friends were plenty accepting and would still hang out and do bro shit together, but they would also start "keeping their guard up" around me once I came out of the closet as bi, and it got so annoying to reassure them every time I talk to them that I'm not hitting on them that I decided it wasn't worth the effort to maintain the friendship anymore. That's the kind of thing many closeted gay/bi dudes I know are afraid of.

Was just about to write something similar.

It really seems that there's a growing number of men identifying as straight that have self-confidence issues when it comes to their manhood. Those have always been around, but I'm starting to see it a lot more with straight men's perception of their personal masculinity.

It's become this very fragile and vulnerable thing, and I've noticed that's how some (but not all) straight guys I've interacted with have approached me being gay. If I hide my sexuality, it's fine, but the moment I say something specific to my sexuality, they get withdrawn.

I'm starting to see this multiply a lot more with "cancel culture." Especially with people my age and younger, there's a growing fear that, if they make one bad step, they'll forever be labeled this way or that by society.

Sometimes, that creates a situation in which people will label themselves as accepting of liberal ideas like gay rights without actually internalizing them. They're just going through the basic motions to keep out of trouble without caring about true allyship or acceptance.

Because of this, internalized and outwardly homophobic behavior is not kept in check by those people because they're only holding those stances to fulfill a status quo. Of course, true allies exist, but there's a growing trend of the opposite.

I forget the names of the authors, but there's an academic study called "Performance Progressivism" that is a deep dive into this conversation regarding this type of charade when it comes to gay rights.