Young Gays Staying In The Closet In A Liberal Environment?

[bigboaster]

Was just about to write something similar.

It really seems that there's a growing number of men identifying as straight that have self-confidence issues when it comes to their manhood. Those have always been around, but I'm starting to see it a lot more with straight men's perception of their personal masculinity.

It's become this very fragile and vulnerable thing, and I've noticed that's how some (but not all) straight guys I've interacted with have approached me being gay. If I hide my sexuality, it's fine, but the moment I say something specific to my sexuality, they get withdrawn.

I'm starting to see this multiply a lot more with "cancel culture." Especially with people my age and younger, there's a growing fear that, if they make one bad step, they'll forever be labeled this way or that by society.

Sometimes, that creates a situation in which people will label themselves as accepting of liberal ideas like gay rights without actually internalizing them. They're just going through the basic motions to keep out of trouble without caring about true allyship or acceptance.

Because of this, internalized and outwardly homophobic behavior is not kept in check by those people because they're only holding those stances to fulfill a status quo. Of course, true allies exist, but there's a growing trend of the opposite.

I forget the names of the authors, but there's an academic study called "Performance Progressivism" that is a deep dive into this conversation regarding this type of charade when it comes to gay rights.

You're absolutely right. Wasn't something I originally considered. And that study sounds quite interesting. Should check that out when I get a chance

 

[deleted10699801]

You're absolutely right. Wasn't something I originally considered. And that study sounds quite interesting. Should check that out when I get a chance

The article's a bit tricky to get a hold of because it's an academic piece, but if you have a library near you, they should have an online portal where you can probably find it. A bit of a hassle but well worth it in my opinion for the quality of the study.

If you're interested, you find a more in-depth summary here.

 

[cockoids]

well, I don't know if I qualify for younger (I'm 32), I grew up with very liberal gay-supportive nonreligious parents, and i still didn't come out for quite a while. However it was only my parents that were accepting. The area I lived in, my schoolmates, etc were not accepting.

If anything, I remember feeling ashamed for being afraid to tell my parents, since they were so accepting. It's like by the time I was in my early twenties, it was like more like I was ashamed for having been in the closet for so long more than being gay.

However, I do remember times I was put down by my parents early on too. I came out to my mom first and said sorry that I stayed in the closet for so long and she told me it was because I internalized my father's fear of humiliation. Though my dad was accepting of the gay lifestyle I think he sort of taught me *not* to express myself early on out of fear of my embarrassment. You can have liberal parents that still have flaws and can still pass down their fears onto you.

Also, one more big element I remember, is that the gays on TV and and in movies and pop culture and the media, and on the gay streets of the city I lived in, which was my only exposure to homosexuality, none of that felt like me. I was being sold a stereotype that I didn't identify with. I really resisted it. Shows like Queer Eye for the Straight Guy kept people like me in the closet because I wasn't like that and there wasn't anything like me to identify with. I definitely liked dudes, but I also liked heavy metal music and gory comic books and martial arts and handguns and fireworks and hockey and normal boy stuff like that, and there wasn't any role models at the time who said you could be that AND gay. It's like you were either a sissy or you weren't gay. I have no idea what it's like for Gen Z folks, but I imagine for them its something similar. there's SO much gay stuff in the media now that gay youth may or may not identify with it and might be repelled by it, which leads them to stay in the closet.

Same bro same

 

[dreambridger]

As a result, many men feel uncomfortable with the idea of coming out, because even though they may not lose their friends, their friends may nonetheless unconsciously perceive them as being inferior than if they were straight. Many people don't realize or consider the possibility they may be gay or bisexual, because then they think they might have to change their lifestyle somehow or start having different hobbies, even if those differences aren't "bad".

I've noticed that many of my straight male friends were plenty accepting and would still hang out and do bro shit together, but they would also start "keeping their guard up" around me once I came out of the closet as bi, and it got so annoying to reassure them every time I talk to them that I'm not hitting on them that I decided it wasn't worth the effort to maintain the friendship anymore. That's the kind of thing many closeted gay/bi dudes I know are afraid of.

It really seems that there's a growing number of men identifying as straight that have self-confidence issues when it comes to their manhood. Those have always been around, but I'm starting to see it a lot more with straight men's perception of their personal masculinity.

It's become this very fragile and vulnerable thing, and I've noticed that's how some (but not all) straight guys I've interacted with have approached me being gay. If I hide my sexuality, it's fine, but the moment I say something specific to my sexuality, they get withdrawn.

I wanted to comment on these points because I notice it too, but I'm not convinced it's homophobia that causes the withdrawal, as much as it is relating differently to sex than I think gay and queer people do. I can definitely relate to the "withdrawal" that a friend might do if I share TMI or make an offhand comment about being gay, but first I want to point out that its both female friends and male friends who react this way, and its specific personalities. Most straight people are conditioned to approach sex as an entirely private affair that's never verbalized, often not even to one's partner. However this enforcement of the private-ness of sexual nature is a huge part of what oppresses homosexuals, and liberation for us often comes in the form of verbal honesty. It's why I think queer people are why more likely to overshare than heterosexuals, because oversharing is how we free ourselves of the fear that initially locked us in, and we find comfort when we talk about it. Most straight people don't want to "talk about it" in the same way that I think a gay person, i would argue, needs to. A sexually honest person is kind of threatening to those who've never experienced that culture. Straights who are swingers or who are poly never normally withdraw in the same way, because they'll talk about things as much as queers do. The ones who do withdraw....are you sure its homosexuality they're guarding themselves from, or is it sexual honesty in general they're guarding themselves from? I would argue that these people just don't know how to handle sexual honesty, and its not necessarily homophobia.

 

[andre1000]

i grew up with liberal parents in what's considered a more secular home. unlike all my peers i didn't partake in sunday school nor get a confirmation(it's like the catholic equivalent to a bar mitzvah). my grandma was very religious(and evangelical), but we didn't live close to her, so her religious ideals were rarely present in my life. but still, i only came out to my parents at 19. why? because despite all of that liberal and secular environment, i still had to witness through media all the stuff other closeted people faced when coming out. it created a little voice in the back of my head that instilled fear in me, made me worry i'd get beaten up, kicked out, sent to conversion therapy. because that's the shit that's constantly being displayed in the media. having an accepting family isn't the norm, we're considered one of the lucky ones. so it can really fuck up your perspective of things and make you fear coming out will have a negative outcome.
that is one of the big factors for coming out to the people close to you. but it also needs to be taken into account the external factors. sure, you might live in a liberal and accepting place, but that just means majority are accepting, not all. so you're still at risk of being discriminated. it might not be the level of discrimination someone might face in a more conservative environment, but it's still discrimination. and it might screw up your life a little bit. all it takes is one homophobe in the wrong place at the wrong time. europe is deemed a pretty liberal and accepting place for lgbt people, but that only applies to the big cities. go further out and you'll immediately be met with people who are openly bigoted and have no issue saying it to your face. it can make you feel less secure about where you are, feel unwelcomed, ruin job opportunities, etc.
so while growing up in a liberal/secular home, in a liberal environment might seem like recipe for a safe coming out, there's still way too many factors that create that fear and keep people in the closet

 

[englad]

I think you are correct, in terms of the internal closet being a strong reason for not coming out. Coming out to yourself and accepting that you are different from others is potent. I think another factor is heteronormativity and peer pressure. People are expected and assumed to be straight, unless demonstrated otherwise. We haven't yet reached a situation where liking men or liking women is like expressing your tea/coffee preference. As for peer pressure, I remember even not mentioning liking some "uncool" music when I was growing up, for example. The peer pressure and heteronormativity mixture could also morph into false perceptions of people being more homophobic than they actually are. You have to be ready to come out, and many take their time to ready themselves, it always takes courage to admit you are different, even if other people are outwardly accepting. For myself personally, I would say the more homophobia I encountered, the less I gave a shit about what homophobes think, so I thank homophobia for helping me ready myself for a life outside the closet.

I also think that many people may seem accepting, but they still see "gay" as something "other" and inherently as lesser and not ideal. And I think many gay men still carry this internalised homophobia of seeing themselves as lesser. Personally, I think it's ridiculous, we're usually much tougher than straight men, because we are being our true selves in a world, which is still built around the preferences and identity of cis straight men (and their sense of masculinity can be notoriously fragile as others have said).

 

[bigboaster]

i grew up with liberal parents in what's considered a more secular home. unlike all my peers i didn't partake in sunday school nor get a confirmation(it's like the catholic equivalent to a bar mitzvah). my grandma was very religious(and evangelical), but we didn't live close to her, so her religious ideals were rarely present in my life. but still, i only came out to my parents at 19. why? because despite all of that liberal and secular environment, i still had to witness through media all the stuff other closeted people faced when coming out. it created a little voice in the back of my head that instilled fear in me, made me worry i'd get beaten up, kicked out, sent to conversion therapy. because that's the shit that's constantly being displayed in the media. having an accepting family isn't the norm, we're considered one of the lucky ones. so it can really fuck up your perspective of things and make you fear coming out will have a negative outcome.
that is one of the big factors for coming out to the people close to you. but it also needs to be taken into account the external factors. sure, you might live in a liberal and accepting place, but that just means majority are accepting, not all. so you're still at risk of being discriminated. it might not be the level of discrimination someone might face in a more conservative environment, but it's still discrimination. and it might screw up your life a little bit. all it takes is one homophobe in the wrong place at the wrong time. europe is deemed a pretty liberal and accepting place for lgbt people, but that only applies to the big cities. go further out and you'll immediately be met with people who are openly bigoted and have no issue saying it to your face. it can make you feel less secure about where you are, feel unwelcomed, ruin job opportunities, etc.
so while growing up in a liberal/secular home, in a liberal environment might seem like recipe for a safe coming out, there's still way too many factors that create that fear and keep people in the closet

I think you are correct, in terms of the internal closet being a strong reason for not coming out. Coming out to yourself and accepting that you are different from others is potent. I think another factor is heteronormativity and peer pressure. People are expected and assumed to be straight, unless demonstrated otherwise. We haven't yet reached a situation where liking men or liking women is like expressing your tea/coffee preference. As for peer pressure, I remember even not mentioning liking some "uncool" music when I was growing up, for example. The peer pressure and heteronormativity mixture could also morph into false perceptions of people being more homophobic than they actually are. You have to be ready to come out, and many take their time to ready themselves, it always takes courage to admit you are different, even if other people are outwardly accepting. For myself personally, I would say the more homophobia I encountered, the less I gave a shit about what homophobes think, so I thank homophobia for helping me ready myself for a life outside the closet.

I also think that many people may seem accepting, but they still see "gay" as something "other" and inherently as lesser and not ideal. And I think many gay men still carry this internalised homophobia of seeing themselves as lesser. Personally, I think it's ridiculous, we're usually much tougher than straight men, because we are being our true selves in a world, which is still built around the preferences and identity of cis straight men (and their sense of masculinity can be notoriously fragile as others have said).

Thank you both for your replies and sharing some of your experiences. Very strong points made for sure

 

[alpha_centauri]

I know gay men who are from the end of Generation X born in early 1980s and they were semi-out in closet to certain friends, but then they went back deep into the closet and married women who they have a marriage of convenience with. These guys know I am bisexual but remain deep in the closet, their families are progressive, and they grew up and live in progressive countries/cities/towns.

I do know the one man that is gay married a woman as his mother dominates his life, she wanted him to marry a woman, and now his "wife" dominates his life and controls him.

 

[AllDixNeedLuv69]

i was born in 1970 grew up in the 80sand i never kept my sexuality a secret---i never got to much bullying from it thenbut it seems to be more bullying now than back then and thats sad

 

[Christopher Chamberlain]

Liberal or not, people are terrible. So the less they know about who you really are, the less they can judge and ridicule you. Take these threads for example, people voice their opinions anonymously online and those who disagree cannot help but rip you apart for having a different point of view. Imagine how much worse they would be in person. In my experience, liberals are becoming just as violent and confrontational as conservatives have been. So, yeah, keeping your head down and your mouth closed is not a bad idea if you wanna make it out alive.

 

[Cdkcdk92]

Not my business, not yours either.

 

[bigboaster]

Liberal or not, people are terrible. So the less they know about who you really are, the less they can judge and ridicule you. Take these threads for example, people voice their opinions anonymously online and those who disagree cannot help but rip you apart for having a different point of view. Imagine how much worse they would be in person. In my experience, liberals are becoming just as violent and confrontational as conservatives have been. So, yeah, keeping your head down and your mouth closed is not a bad idea if you wanna make it out alive.

Fair points for sure.

 

[bigboaster]

Not my business, not yours either.

Okay?