Anybody doing the ketogentic diet?

[Max_Polo]

It's unsafe because you are eating a diet that is ridiculously high in fat, this is terrible for your cardiovascular health and it is also well understood that this leads to insulin resistance. Elevated cortisol levels, sub optimal for physical performance, the list goes on.

That is entirely incorrect. Insulin resistance is caused by obesity, not by dietary fat intake.

You may have missed this above:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2716748/

And there are many more.

 

[Max_Polo]

I hear it works but it takes a lot of effort to get into and stay in ketosis. Even a couple grams of carbs can but you out of the optimal zone and leave you feeling tired and unable to concentrate or properly furl yourself and your workouts. Carbs are our preferred source of fuel. Trick is to focus on good carbs and carb timing if you are active rather than eliminate them.

Important points which are a bit nuanced. For many (maybe @hung9thick) this is intuitive, but I'd bet he still works very hard to keep in such great shape.

Ketosis per se is irrelevant, it's only a marker for relative calorie (and probably specifically) carbohydrate deficit. It's neither a means nor an end, only a marker. The misconception here started with the Atkins diet - he thought fat was magic, carbohydrates evil and ketosis was the means to lose weight. He was close but not correct.

The real enemy is simple carbohydrate intake, primarily in the form of processed sugars and grains. That is, most white food (sugar, white flour, etc) are best avoided.

Fat is largely irrelevant as well but of course, you cannot drink lard all day and expect to lose weight because excess calories cause weight gain, period. The trick is that more protein is definitely better; increases basal metabolic rate, decreases hunger and snacking and is good fuel.

For most people trying to lose weight, there's an easy way to demonstrate this. Attempt to change nothing about your diet except to add two hard boiled (or scrambled or whatever) eggs when you first get out of bed, again at about 10:00 AM, 3:00 PM and anytime you're hungry otherwise. This isn't sustainable generally because it's boring, but I've yet to have a patient who does not see the appetite suppression, increased energy and weight loss within a few days. They can then take that example and start to modify the other food they eat during the day to lower carbohydrate intake.

A second easy demonstration is to lower total daily carbohydrate consumption below 20 grams or so. That's very difficult to do and probably not sustainable, but again, I've never had a patient who did not quickly see the effects.

For readers, the South Beach Diet book is a good start, it explains the science pretty well.

 

[southeastone]

Losing one to two pounds on a weekly basis is excellent progress. .

Fully understand that but you have a good body and so maybe don't understand how a guy who has say 80 pounds to lose feels when he does a weight watchers type diet and loses 2 pound a week, it is VERY hard work for very small return. I think like all health related stuff it's horses for courses.

 

[Max_Polo]

Losing one to two pounds on a weekly basis is excellent progress.

Fully understand that but you have a good body and so maybe don't understand how a guy who has say 80 pounds to lose feels when he does a weight watchers type diet and loses 2 pound a week, it is VERY hard work for very small return. I think like all health related stuff it's horses for courses.

@southeastone - one of the few things I've seen @sangheili90 write in this thread with which I agree is that 2 pounds per week is very good progress. Having lost a little over 100# personally, I also understand how frustrating that pace is. But it's reasonable because just about any lifestyle change that is more dramatic than one with that result will be very difficult to sustain in the long term. No harm in more rapid weight loss and @sangheili90 is not correct about glycogen stores being the source of weight loss, etc however - but again, dramatic lifestyle change can be difficult to stick with.

 

[twoton]

I am probably one who confused ketosis with ketoacidosis.

 

[southeastone]

@southeastone - one of the few things I've seen @sangheili90 write in this thread with which I agree is that 2 pounds per week is very good progress. Having lost a little over 100# personally, I also understand how frustrating that pace is. But it's reasonable because just about any lifestyle change that is more dramatic than one with that result will be very difficult to sustain in the long term. No harm in more rapid weight loss and @sangheili90 is not correct about glycogen stores being the source of weight loss, etc however - but again, dramatic lifestyle change can be difficult to stick with.

I do agree but have also lived the weight watchers lifestyle and trust me that is very difficult to stick with for a lot (including me) but after losing 60 pounds reasonably quickly on low carb I had the motivation to not go back, for me that was the better and in fact only route, I think it is hard and indeed wrong to say only one way is the correct way as sangheli implied.

 

[Max_Polo]

I do agree but have also lived the weight watchers lifestyle and trust me that is very difficult to stick with for a lot (including me) but after losing 60 pounds reasonably quickly on low carb I had the motivation to not go back, for me that was the better and in fact only route, I think it is hard and indeed wrong to say only one way is the correct way as sangheli implied.

I said "one of the few things" and wasn't trying to be a dick. The science here is pretty simple though. Dramatic changes are harder to maintain. And low carbohydrate diets work.

 

[southeastone]

I said "one of the few things" and wasn't trying to be a dick. The science here is pretty simple though. Dramatic changes are harder to maintain. And low carbohydrate diets work.

I fully understand and was not implying you were a dick for a minute, maybe someone else,

 

[AlteredEgo]

Fully understand that but you have a good body and so maybe don't understand how a guy who has say 80 pounds to lose feels when he does a weight watchers type diet and loses 2 pound a week, it is VERY hard work for very small return. I think like all health related stuff it's horses for courses.

Move more, eat less, and watch what it is specifically that you're eating. Carbs should come in the form of fruits vegetables and nuts. Fat should be primarily from vegetables and nuts. Stick to that and it will be easy. 2 pounds a week is very good progress.

 

[AlteredEgo]

I lost 95 pounds, by the way. The first 50 was through weight watchers.

 

[W4_Hung]

Let's not get into a shit flinging match.

If you want to do keto, go for it but you can, by all means, lose fat eating junk food, if losing fat is the goal you can eat whatever as long as you are in a deficit. Keto is more than just eating sub 30g net carbs, you need to eat sufficient amounts of fat not protein. To be in a ketogenic state is have your blood sugar levels sub 5mols, which also means you have to limit cortisol which will spike it meaning sleeping well, in time with your natural clock, limiting blue light exposure after sun down etc, not just waffling down bacon.

I've never been one to just aim to lose fat I train to be athletic as I play rugby competitively, row and play Capoeira so for me having a well-rounded diet is necessary for recovery and sustained energy during my sports, which I didn't find on the keto diet.

There are papers supporting both sides because unfortunately, "scientists" are liable to funding so read these papers in depth, not just the cover page and take it with a pinch of salt.

 

[sangheili90]

That is entirely incorrect. Insulin resistance is caused by obesity, not by dietary fat intake.

You may have missed this above:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2716748/

And there are many more.

I'm not going to deny obesity can cause insulin resistance, but there is a lot of data that shows what I'm talking about.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120522114536.htm
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/22/7815.full

 

[sangheili90]

@southeastone - one of the few things I've seen @sangheili90 write in this thread with which I agree is that 2 pounds per week is very good progress. Having lost a little over 100# personally, I also understand how frustrating that pace is. But it's reasonable because just about any lifestyle change that is more dramatic than one with that result will be very difficult to sustain in the long term. No harm in more rapid weight loss and @sangheili90 is not correct about glycogen stores being the source of weight loss, etc however - but again, dramatic lifestyle change can be difficult to stick with.

I said going on a low carb diet, when you were previously eating a higher carb diet, will result in rapid weight loss due to glycogen depletion and the water loss that comes with it. I'm referring to a short term weight loss, not something over several weeks or months.

 

[sangheili90]

Fully understand that but you have a good body and so maybe don't understand how a guy who has say 80 pounds to lose feels when he does a weight watchers type diet and loses 2 pound a week, it is VERY hard work for very small return. I think like all health related stuff it's horses for courses.

I try to encourage people to embrace more realistic habits, in regards to both diet and exercise, as it is far easier to maintain in the long term. A lot of people who have a tremendous amount of weight to lose will either go on a crash diet, begin an over the top exercise routine or a combination of the two. As you can imagine, they burn out quickly and end up back where they started, only to go through this again and again.

 

[sangheili90]

Let's not get into a shit flinging match.

If you want to do keto, go for it but you can, by all means, lose fat eating junk food, if losing fat is the goal you can eat whatever as long as you are in a deficit. Keto is more than just eating sub 30g net carbs, you need to eat sufficient amounts of fat not protein. To be in a ketogenic state is have your blood sugar levels sub 5mols, which also means you have to limit cortisol which will spike it meaning sleeping well, in time with your natural clock, limiting blue light exposure after sun down etc, not just waffling down bacon.

I've never been one to just aim to lose fat I train to be athletic as I play rugby competitively, row and play Capoeira so for me having a well-rounded diet is necessary for recovery and sustained energy during my sports, which I didn't find on the keto diet.

There are papers supporting both sides because unfortunately, "scientists" are liable to funding so read these papers in depth, not just the cover page and take it with a pinch of salt.

The whole point is that following a keto diet is not only unhealthy but ridiculously restrictive. I just ate an apple, a very healthy food choice, and now I've already hit over half of my net carbs for the day. Meanwhile, I can go eat over 100 grams of fat in a day and not think anything of it lol. I'm not telling someone to be a vegetarian, but I don't grasp the logic of not just following a more balanced diet, especially one that limits the consumption of foods linked to various diseases (red meat, butter, full fat dairy, refined sugars, etc.).

It's pretty well understood that eating a high fat diet like this will also result in a high consumption of saturated fat, and it is now well accepted that the more of this you eat the higher your LDL cholesterol will be. To those who doesn't know what that means, high LDL levels are a risk factor for having a heart attack.

 

[Sailingbear]

Now been on me to diet for 10 weeks. 2nd lab results even better than week 4. My blood glucose has dropped from 114 pre diet to 93 last week, total cholesterol dropped from 184 to 136, Triglycerides which were at 247 are now 194. They are still high, but dropping. The best part is weight. From 282 in Jan 2017 to 224 today. Two thirds coming off on the ketogentic diet in 10 weeks. Results for me are good or better across the board plus I love the foods I can eat. My goal is another 25 pounds and work on stabilizing my weight. I think when I hit that weight my triglycerides will fall in place. HDL I will have to gear up my activity level and start running and biking more.

 

[Max_Polo]

Now been on me to diet for 10 weeks. 2nd lab results even better than week 4. My blood glucose has dropped from 114 pre diet to 93 last week, total cholesterol dropped from 184 to 136, Triglycerides which were at 247 are now 194. They are still high, but dropping. The best part is weight. From 282 in Jan 2017 to 224 today. Two thirds coming off on the ketogentic diet in 10 weeks. Results for me are good or better across the board plus I love the foods I can eat. My goal is another 25 pounds and work on stabilizing my weight. I think when I hit that weight my triglycerides will fall in place. HDL I will have to gear up my activity level and start running and biking more.

HDL and triglycerides are inversely related - as TAG drops, HDL will come up. Great progress! Trick is to keep it going long-term.