Coming out to sons

[Thom Hewson]

Hi looking for advice on coming out to my adult sons (29 & 23). It's a complicated situation.

My wife has always known I'm attracted to men, I fell blindly in love with her because she said I love you anyway, and especially in the age of AIDS I wanted a different life with a family (marrying and having kids was also unthinkable at the time). But we are very incompatible as people she has impulsively explosive anger and an unapologetically rather right than sorry attitude about life. In my immaturity at 28 when we married, I thought living with that was my cross to bear for being accepted and that nobody else would have me..

I vowed being with a man was the one thing I wouldn't do and stuck to it for 25 years. We were intimate for the first 11, her attitudes broke my heart at that point but we were parents by then so I stuck to my vow for another 14 years.

Sparing the details, I did eventually face a point of near breakdown, out of nowhere had a salesman come on to me in a dressing room, realized I needed to face my feelings head on and allowed myself to be with a man at age 54. Driving home from the hotel where we met I looked in the rear view and said out loud, "Finally I can breathe!"

Fast forward maybe 8 years, I've been seeing another married man for about 5. He lives out of town, but mom is still in Chicago and he'd been emptying out her house for years before it finally sold. My wife caught me not being where I said I was (with him overnight instead of at a work meeting which had included overnight stays) . We had a head on conversation. I was unapologetic about the sexual contacts as a matter of mental health, since all my anxiety and guilt vanished overnight with the first encounter. She was furious the relationships had been going on for awhile.

Since that conversation she derogatorily accuses me at every turn of sneaking off to be with "my friends." At least half the time she's dead wrong, some of the time I have nothing to apologize for (like just meeting for coffee) and only rarely am I actually intimate with another man.

Recently for no related reason she exploded that she was "going to blow my cover."

What's my next move?
Should I get ahead of her coming out to my sons so they hear a balanced account first ? I have no problem telling them this is who I am, it's the second part about the relationships since the first encounter that I don't know how to discuss or fear how my relationship as Dad will change as a result. I love them both more than my own life. I hope they know that. They have both grown up to be such fine young men, both str8 but with acceptance of LGBT and even transitions.

They are also both very aware of their moms anger and lack of apology for anything and will call her on it.
Or what conversation should I initiate with my wife instead? I didn't jump to the thought of divorce, not really well off enough to afford it. But she remains steadfast in criticizing the slightest little thing, explodes at the drop of a hat and will not seek treatment. My limited connections with men are as much about experiencing a positive human relationship to keep me going as about the sex.

Did it mention complicated?
She has metastatic cancer, treatable for now but eventually it will take her.
I don't want my younger son to be saddled with caring for her by divorcing, he lives with us now while paying off school loans. I can't bear the thought of his life being derailed from marriage as mom will be in a slow decline at least another 5-10 years maybe before she starts getting seriously worse. I always sought the best care for her without hesitation even though she gives me no credit. I will take that responsibility.
My elder son is married and lives 5 hours away.
And for the time being I have my elderly and declining parents living nearby and in need of help. Dad's 94 with heart issues and cognitive decline, mom is 88 and in middle stage dementia.
I'm 64 and need to work (a demanding job as a university gift officer) another 3 years to reach retirement.

 

[crawdaddy]

That's a lot of baggage to be carrying....
As a man who was also once heterosexually married with two (now) grown up sons I can feel your anguish about what to do.
However, rather than empathise, I'm going to say some hard things for you to hear, mainly because I cannot see much compassion for your wife in your post and because I'd rather you not make the mistakes people like me made in damaging those closest to them.
Firstly, it sounds like your sons are good men (i.e. they are adults) and love you as their father.
Of course, it will be a shock to them to hear that you are gay and they may be both angry & disappointed with you, at first, or even for ever. That is the risk we take when we lie about our real selves to those nearest to us.
However, they will also know the real you for the first time and, with time, acceptance and forgiveness usually comes.
Remember, they will no more want to lose their father than you wish to lose them!
I suggest not doing anything hasty in regards to telling your sons until you have attempted to resolve the issues with your wife.
You married your wife knowing full well you were gay. Her acceptance of it doesn't mean that you are absolved from the responsibility of your decision and nor does fidelity have an expiry clause. You lied & cheated and she is hurt & angry, as anyone would be. Not only that, if she has metastatic cancer, she is dealing with the uncertainty of her lifespan and not knowing how & when her time will be over. To also believe she may be discarded by the man she loves (/ loved) for someone else can only add to her pain.
I think you owe her an apology first and then a frank and honest discussion about what you both want. To me, it would seem that to spend the next 10 years in continued misery is not good for you, or for her in her final years.
May I suggest a few discussion points? :
1. Does she wish to continue to be together with you, knowing you are gay and presumably have no intimacy/ sexual desire or sexual contact with her?
2. If she does wish for you to stay together; Can she accept your sexual outlets as the price of this continued marriage?
3. Can you both tolerate another decade of being together in such a relationship for you both?
4. Are you prepared to provide the love, comfort & support to her that she will require when she approaches her death?
5. Doesn't your wife deserve better than what you are offering? Maybe she would be happier without living with you? You can still support her as a friend without being together as a couple.
6. What about you? You haven't said what you want:
Do you want to remain married - being unhappy and unfulfilled?
Do you want to divorce - which will involve loss, financial and personal? Do you want to be in a committed relationship/ live with/ love another man?
If I may be harsh, it seems to me that you describe your options more as damage limitation for your life choices.
You're 64. You only get one life, it's not a dress rehearsal that we get to do better next time. We cannot live our lives in fear of what others will think or avoiding change becomes it comes with risk or pain for ourselves and others.

If you cannot discuss this between yourselves without acrimony & threats, I would suggest seeing a Marriage Guidance counsellor. If your wife refuses this, then you will have some hard decisions to make on your own but I would strongly suggest to try to do this together for the sake of both of you & your sons.

I say this as somebody who got it all wrong in so many ways and left behind an angry wife, damaged, hostile and hating me to my core. Like you, my ex-wife knew I was bisexual before we married. Like you, we had no sexual contact for over a decade. However, she still regarded it as a marriage bound by the agreements we made when we married.

My-ex was certainly not perfect and nor was I. I left when I realised that I wanted sex and relationships with men and not with her, before I acted on these desires.

It didn't make it any easier and I lost friends, family, my home and myself for a while. Fortunately, with time, I found myself again, I live happily with my (male) partner in a committed & monogamous relationship and my sons forgave me with time. However, they now spend their lives juggling the ongoing hostility.

You can do better than I did. Be compassionate but be honest with yourself & with your wife. You owe her (and yourself) that.

 

[Thom Hewson]

That's a lot of baggage to be carrying....
As a man who was also once heterosexually married with two (now) grown up sons I can feel your anguish about what to do.
However, rather than empathise, I'm going to say some hard things for you to hear, mainly because I cannot see much compassion for your wife in your post and because I'd rather you not make the mistakes people like me made in damaging those closest to them.
Firstly, it sounds like your sons are good men (i.e. they are adults) and love you as their father.
Of course, it will be a shock to them to hear that you are gay and they may be both angry & disappointed with you, at first, or even for ever. That is the risk we take when we lie about our real selves to those nearest to us.
However, they will also know the real you for the first time and, with time, acceptance and forgiveness usually comes.
Remember, they will no more want to lose their father than you wish to lose them!
I suggest not doing anything hasty in regards to telling your sons until you have attempted to resolve the issues with your wife.
You married your wife knowing full well you were gay. Her acceptance of it doesn't mean that you are absolved from the responsibility of your decision and nor does fidelity have an expiry clause. You lied & cheated and she is hurt & angry, as anyone would be. Not only that, if she has metastatic cancer, she is dealing with the uncertainty of her lifespan and not knowing how & when her time will be over. To also believe she may be discarded by the man she loves (/ loved) for someone else can only add to her pain.
I think you owe her an apology first and then a frank and honest discussion about what you both want. To me, it would seem that to spend the next 10 years in continued misery is not good for you, or for her in her final years.
May I suggest a few discussion points? :
1. Does she wish to continue to be together with you, knowing you are gay and presumably have no intimacy/ sexual desire or sexual contact with her?
2. If she does wish for you to stay together; Can she accept your sexual outlets as the price of this continued marriage?
3. Can you both tolerate another decade of being together in such a relationship for you both?
4. Are you prepared to provide the love, comfort & support to her that she will require when she approaches her death?
5. Doesn't your wife deserve better than what you are offering? Maybe she would be happier without living with you? You can still support her as a friend without being together as a couple.
6. What about you? You haven't said what you want:
Do you want to remain married - being unhappy and unfulfilled?
Do you want to divorce - which will involve loss, financial and personal? Do you want to be in a committed relationship/ live with/ love another man?
If I may be harsh, it seems to me that you describe your options more as damage limitation for your life choices.
You're 64. You only get one life, it's not a dress rehearsal that we get to do better next time. We cannot live our lives in fear of what others will think or avoiding change becomes it comes with risk or pain for ourselves and others.

If you cannot discuss this between yourselves without acrimony & threats, I would suggest seeing a Marriage Guidance counsellor. If your wife refuses this, then you will have some hard decisions to make on your own but I would strongly suggest to try to do this together for the sake of both of you & your sons.

I say this as somebody who got it all wrong in so many ways and left behind an angry wife, damaged, hostile and hating me to my core. Like you, my ex-wife knew I was bisexual before we married. Like you, we had no sexual contact for over a decade. However, she still regarded it as a marriage bound by the agreements we made when we married.

My-ex was certainly not perfect and nor was I. I left when I realised that I wanted sex and relationships with men and not with her, before I acted on these desires.

It didn't make it any easier and I lost friends, family, my home and myself for a while. Fortunately, with time, I found myself again, I live happily with my (male) partner in a committed & monogamous relationship and my sons forgave me with time. However, they now spend their lives juggling the ongoing hostility.

You can do better than I did. Be compassionate but be honest with yourself & with your wife. You owe her (and yourself) that.

Thank you @crawdaddy You were in fact very empathetic and have given me a lot to contemplate. Even writing out what I did I began to think the conversation starts with her.

The part I left out is that I firmly believe being kind and respectful is every bit as much a core part of marriage vows as fidelity. All throughout the relationship , when things were intimate, before and after the wedding, she has rarely apologized for hurting my feelings, harangues for stupid stuff with glaring double standards...

 

[crawdaddy]

Glad I could help (a bit). It's really difficult, especially when we marry someone that is wrong for us. You've got a lot to untangle but you sound like a good man and a great dad. You deserve to be happy too.

 

[Thom Hewson]

Sorry @crawdaddy i thought id lost my reply when itried to save it so i started over...

Hi thank you for your response which was actually very empathetic. As I was writing I had a feeling that the conversation needed to start with my wife.

The part I shorthanded was that in my view and I don't believe this is subjective, treating your partner with kindness and respect is equally part of the vows as fidelity. Throughout the relationship even when things were intimate and once married, she always believed she had free rein to harshly criticize with impunity and with no regard for the impact of her anger or negativity. She still thinks that probably even moreso. I begged, pleaded, cried, got angry myself, she is stubbornly unmoved and remorseless. So that's what killed the relationship and made fidelity meaningless to me when it finally came to my mental health, because all during those 25 years, I really really tried hard to change myself for a different life. I tried so hard to be attentive and thoughtful. The only way she was ever quiet, even when not necessarily happy, was calling. every. shot. You should have asked me first. You should have known what *I* wanted because I'm always right. I felt like I was losing my brain.
I also leered a lot, sometimes seen by her which was disconcerting... and I was tempted numerous times.. once even with a friend we were both close to... a refugee we helped resettle. I confessed my feelings for him, he is str8 but said i could service him if it would make me feel better... but i always took the high road. He cried for me as much as i cried inside.

The only time she was ever empathetic was when I divulged getting naked with my first cousin, he and I are twins in age but polar opposite personalities. We were both very young. It went on for awhile.

So yeah this could have been neat and tidy, easy to tell the sons if the male interaction was over and done with. But it's not.

My empathy for her is in recognizing the intimacy she feels cheated out of, that I didn't give her. But which i also passed up for still most ofthe marriage. But with zero acknowledgement for having killed every effort I'm at a loss there, other than to say I'm sorry I didn't live up to your expectations.

I think I tried that when we last really talked.. no recognition other than yeah sure you never had your eye on me. Everything's always about her. Could never make her happy, no matter how many times I tried to be thoughtful with gifts and nice gestures, the response was almost always "that's not what I want." It was never the thought that counted. How do you embrace and kiss and make love to someone who keeps hurting you remorselessly? I pushed through the torrents early on to respond, my body just wouldn't after a point.

 

[Thom Hewson]

@crawdaddy

Sorry I can't leave out one last suitcase... this one is a whole steamer trunk of baggage.

Her parents divorced when she was quite young. Parents were both Armenian emigres from Istanbul intending to go back after residency training but caught in the Turkish Greek hostilities of 1953, could not return home. Father in law married one of his patients who could best be described as a cross between Agnes Moorhead and Joan Crawford. Mother in law got the house but little alimony. Unlike her sister, my wife forgave her dad and had a good relationship with him. I had thought that was such a good sign.

 

[crawdaddy]

Thom, I couldn't agree with you more. Kindness and compassion for each other is the most important thing in any relationship, more than fidelity, even more than honesty, and it sounds like you never felt that in your marriage. That's a heavy burden to carry for over half your life and maybe you don't need to keep carrying that particular baggage.
I'm going to throw another thought at you which may appear a bit misogynistic but having experienced the same in my marriage, I wondered if it might be something you may want to consider....
Is it an 'accident' that so many heterosexually-married 'gay' or 'bisexual' men end up in these dysfunctional relationships with covert narcissist women or do we get 'chosen' by them too. After all, she also chose to marry you, knowing your sexuality was unclear.
Is it the mismatched sexualities that drives the dysfunction or is it 'baked in' from the beginning.
From the way you describe your wife she fits the 'covert narcissism' profile completely.

It sounds as though you've already been through a huge amount of pain.

For what is worth - you are entitled to be happy, sexually fulfilled and receive kindness, love & compassion from your partner. If you are not getting that and there is no prospect of that changing: you have two choices as far as I can see:
1. Have that frank discussion with your wife, setting your limits and what you will accept/ agree to if you stay married & allow her to do the same.
2. Leave the marriage or allow her to do the same.

Somebody much wiser than me once said life was never meant to be this complicated. Yours is incredibly complicated but there is a path out.
Please consider talking to a counsellor if you can.
They will be much better than LPSG (or me!) at helping you clarifying your wishes and plans for a better future, hopefully free of so much pain.
Good luck!

 

[Thom Hewson]

@crawdaddy. I don't mean to take so much of your time, you're here for other reasons than my pathetic life. Thank you again for your compassion ...

Interesting question. In my case I wonder if there was a (covert) desire to marry "someone I can boss around." This has certainly been the case with the sister in law who married a PhD pharma research biologist. Out of sheer teen rebellion she refused to go to college. They met playing in a volleyball league. He could best be described as her lapdog, the two of them are inseparable but it's not the the picture of the doting old couple who hold hands, he's brilliant but it's like he's without any will of his own.

My wife would LOVE that arrangement. I'm supposed to know the way she wants everything even without asking her, when a fork is so much as out of place in thy dishwasher even though it wasn't there when I put mine in .

So I would respond OVERT NARCISSIST.

 

[Thom Hewson]

@crawdaddy my emotional immaturity was in not being able to see what makes people really compatible. I had no sense of that. I was blinded by too much just wanting to make it all work.
I'll never forget her mom's best friend saying off the cuff to me to my face [I couldn't figure you out] "he's either a Saint or he's stupid" for marrying her....

I had plenty of warnings things weren't right. It was the misguided emotional conclusion that her flaws were my cross to bear for living with mine. Gosh what a fucking mess I am.

So now I'm at the crossroads of feeling like I don't want to leave her in her condition. That I am willing to care for her to the end ... IF she'll just stop attacking me at every turn as I see her lash out when she is dead wrong because she has NO intent or desire to know any fact first. I have a masters degree in journalism, that confounds me. Or it did until you set my eyes straight: why would a narcissist even care to know any truth? It's all about them, what they think is the way it is.

I never wanted intended desired to fulfill some nasty prophecy that I would leave her.. in the worst possible shape... like her dad left her mother. I sure as hell don't want my son to have to have his life derailed caring for her even is he is a homebody.

Just all seems so impossible ...

I'll ponder your thoughts , come back to them.... find someone professional to talk with.

Funny, if left alone Mike and I are happy enough knowing we're soulmates. Even though we'll likely never get to hang curtains together. We just need some time together from time to time and it's not all sex. It's walks and tennis and a simple meal together or a movie or an occasional performance in a theater. But it's also intimacy that yields a sense of weightless peace long ago lost in the marriage.

I always thought (a la King Charles III) that if I forced my way it wouldn't end well. Happened that way to a family member , my once dearest aunt.

So if I'm not free until 70 or 75 so be it. But who knows , I could get killed one day by a hit and run driver like her mom , or die in a month of undiagnosed cancer like her dad.

 

[crawdaddy]

Thom, you're not taking my time. I am happy to chat as I've been there with the ''mess'' as you describe it.
If I may quote you:

Funny, if left alone Mike and I are happy enough knowing we're soulmates. Even though we'll likely never get to hang curtains together. We just need some time together from time to time and it's not all sex. It's walks and tennis and a simple meal together or a movie or an occasional performance in a theater. But it's also intimacy that yields a sense of weightless peace long ago lost in the marriage.

That right there, is a relationship. Not what you describe as your life with your wife.
Please forgive me if I am being over-directive but 25 years is already a long sentence for making a mistake when you were young and foolish.
This may be harsh but you do not owe her the next 10 years of your life, waiting for her to die, to be free to live your life or to be at peace.
Your son's life will not be derailed if you don't let it. You can control that.
You are free to make your own choices, even if someone has cancer.
Your wife has family, friends(?) and others that can support her. You can too, if she'll let you. (If not, why are you staying?)
Please don't settle for misery. It sounds like you've been doing that for so long now.
Talk with a professional, talk to your wife (if you can) and then talk to your sons once you are clearer on your way forward.
There's no rush.

 

[Thom Hewson]

@crawdaddy thank you with all my heart. Funny, I know Mike is not going to change anything in his life (other than retiring next year). So IF I did decide to leave the marriage it wouldn't be to live happily ever after with him. Starting over from scratch at 65 or older is just as nebulous and scary as getting through an acrimonious divorce (the anger queen won't split quietly).

You've given me this clarity for which I am grateful beyond words.

Wife, if you want me to give up relationships with men than you MUST agree to anger management therapy. That's a tangible choice. If you don't agree, I am free to do what I please in my personal life because it's not going to be a one way street. You can also choose to have an agreement about those relationships for the sake of the sons and I will stand by you as I always have even when you refused to see it. I see no reason to give up platonic friendships that do not involve any illicit activity (going out for coffee or a drink) as they are and always have been pure social camaraderie.

 

[MisterB]

Hi @Thom Hewson

I've read your thread. A few times now.

And I get that you did what you thought then was the right decision for you at that time by marrying your wife, loving you in spite she knew you had attractions to men. Rather than beat yourself up for that, take solace in knowing that you have two beautiful sons who exist because you made that decision.

It appears from your posts you and your wife are not getting along. And haven't been for some time. So let's set aside that you are attracted to men. And let's focus on the fact that you and she are now where you are in this relationship.

Let's pretend you have/had no attraction to men; would you stay in the relationship as it currently exists?

That to me is the fundamental question. Leaving the relationship because it's toxic to you/both of you rather than because you are attracted to men. Sure, that complicates the situation, but underlying it all is that your relationship with your wife is not healthy. For either of you it sounds.

I don't know what the ultimate solution for you should be or will be. Only you and she can determine that.

And that's where you are now. At a crossroads. Do you stay and continue to sneak time with male paramours best you can? At the expense of your happiness? Living a full life? Living your authentic life?

Or do you go? And deal with the fallout from that decision.

Or find some happy medium where you stay together but you get to do your thing and she hers?

Difficult quandary you find yourself in it appears. But IMO, at the end of the day, you need to be able to look yourself in the mirror and be happy with the person you see reflected back. Not sure you are right now.

I wish you nothing but good luck with whatever decision you make.

I know that you love your sons and as a parent, you don't want to risk hurting them. Just I cannot imagine any child who loves their parents wanting to see either or both of them unhappy.

And that may be what your sons see; two unhappy people. And who knows, may think it's best that you do split up.

About your wife's medical issues. You don't have to be married to her to still help her as she might need as the disease progresses. Of course, that's if she'd let you if you did divorce/separate.

I wish you nothing but the best my LPSG friend!

Regards,
B

 

[Thom Hewson]

Hi @Thom Hewson

I've read your thread. A few times now.

And I get that you did what you thought then was the right decision for you at that time by marrying your wife, loving you in spite she knew you had attractions to men. Rather than beat yourself up for that, take solace in knowing that you have two beautiful sons who exist because you made that decision.

It appears from your posts you and your wife are not getting along. And haven't been for some time. So let's set aside that you are attracted to men. And let's focus on the fact that you and she are now where you are in this relationship.

Let's pretend you have/had no attraction to men; would you stay in the relationship as it currently exists?

That to me is the fundamental question. Leaving the relationship because it's toxic to you/both of you rather than because you are attracted to men. Sure, that complicates the situation, but underlying it all is that your relationship with your wife is not healthy. For either of you it sounds.

I don't know what the ultimate solution for you should be or will be. Only you and she can determine that.

And that's where you are now. At a crossroads. Do you stay and continue to sneak time with male paramours best you can? At the expense of your happiness? Living a full life? Living your authentic life?

Or do you go? And deal with the fallout from that decision.

Or find some happy medium where you stay together but you get to do your thing and she hers?

Difficult quandary you find yourself in it appears. But IMO, at the end of the day, you need to be able to look yourself in the mirror and be happy with the person you see reflected back. Not sure you are right now.

I wish you nothing but good luck with whatever decision you make.

I know that you love your sons and as a parent, you don't want to risk hurting them. Just I cannot imagine any child who loves their parents wanting to see either or both of them unhappy.

And that may be what your sons see; two unhappy people. And who knows, may think it's best that you do split up.

About your wife's medical issues. You don't have to be married to her to still help her as she might need as the disease progresses. Of course, that's if she'd let you if you did divorce/separate.

I wish you nothing but the best my LPSG friend!

Regards,
B

Thank you @MisterB you're indeed spot. on. I was going there myself, with the notion that her explosive anger has been a persistent issue the entire relationship. Have begged and pleaded for her to seek help to no avail. Like it's her prerogative to lash out as she wishes.

So I started to think about the deal being agree to get help or you have no dominion over my personal life....whether or not you're OK with me having a bf doesn't matter if you're not willing to address the issue that's most important to me. It's not going to be a one way street. (Which is of course her entire expectation).

To your point about caring for her after separating, our neighbor years ago was a French WWII bride ballet instructor well into her 90s. She was divorced from her husband but he lived there with their grown son.

I think the biggest challenge has been got both of us having a conversation without losing it. She makes her own realities saying stuff with no regard for any factual basis. It's rather Trumpy actually, weird cuz we both despise the man, but probably more part of the narcissist component on this whole big mess.

I feel so awful for my younger son who both sees her immature attitudes and behaviors and calls her on them, and also is so caring and attentive to her. So caught in the middle. I've never known a more grounded, emotionally intelligent guy, I've always been so proud of him and his older brother. As an adoptee, the younger guy seems sometimes to have a sense of separateness, I can only conclude that's his shell because he is so not like the temperament he lives in.

 

[MisterB]

I was going there myself, with the notion that her explosive anger has been a persistent issue the entire relationship. Have begged and pleaded for her to seek help to no avail. Like it's her prerogative to lash out as she wishes.

One human cannot control another.

You can't make her go to therapy/anger management or get whatever type of help you think she needs. Nor can you prevent her from lashing out at you as she wishes.

Her persistent anger/lashing out at you during your relationship seems to now have come to a tipping point. You no longer are able or willing to tolerate it is what I'm reading. Which again, has nothing to do with you finding men attractive. Has it gotten worse since she found out you've been with a guy?

Does she lash out at your son who still lives with you? Others in her life? Or is it just you as you've indicated that she's done for the length of your relationship?

When she lashes out at you, you can control how you choose to react to such. And IMO that's what needs to happen.

Might be difficult, but don't react when she lashes out. It's tough! When she seems to be done, ask her if there is something she wants to talk about as you don't hear her when she is lashing out, yelling at you. Tell her you are willing to talk about anything that's bothering her, but you will no longer tolerate such behavior.

And if she continues, get up and leave the room. And if she continues, ignore her. And each time calmly remind her you are happy to talk about her concerns without any yelling. Like adults do. Lather, rinse, repeat.

So I started to think about the deal being agree to get help or you have no dominion over my personal life....whether or not you're OK with me having a bf doesn't matter if you're not willing to address the issue that's most important to me. It's not going to be a one way street. (Which is of course her entire expectation).

IMO her lashing out at you has no bearing on whether you have a BF (or GF) for that matter. It's a behavior that she's getting something out of it as it's been ongoing for years. Perhaps it's that you react and she feeds off of your reaction and then it escalates between the two of you?

You can tell her that getting help with her anger management/lashing out has become a dealbreaker for you. She's got to make an effort to change that behavior or you'll leave. Temporary or permanent, that will depend on her. It's time for you to have that conversation.

To your point about caring for her after separating, our neighbor years ago was a French WWII bride ballet instructor well into her 90s. She was divorced from her husband but he lived there with their grown son.

I've known a few couples similar to this. Divorced/broke up and continued to live together but had separate lives. Helping each other in times of need. Doesn't mean it would work for you. That's why you need to do exactly what you say here:

I think the biggest challenge has been got both of us having a conversation without losing it.

Nothing will ever be resolved unless and until you sit down together as two adults and talk. No yelling. Just talk. About how each of you feel. What each of you want and expect from yourselves and each other. And what you expect going forward.

I feel so awful for my younger son who both sees her immature attitudes and behaviors and calls her on them, and also is so caring and attentive to her. So caught in the middle. I've never known a more grounded, emotionally intelligent guy, I've always been so proud of him and his older brother. As an adoptee, the younger guy seems sometimes to have a sense of separateness, I can only conclude that's his shell because he is so not like the temperament he lives in.

You can bet he's not happy living in such circumstances where he may feel like he has to walk on eggshells never knowing when she's going to erupt again.

His Mother is in pain. His Father is in pain. He sees it every day witnessing the dynamic between the two of you. And it's not good for him.

Here's what I've learned over my 7 decades on this planet.

1. Life is Too Short Not to be Happy.
2. People treat me how I allow them to treat me.
3. I can be miserable by myself; why would I want to be in a relationship with someone who makes me miserable?

I sense you are at a crossroads in your life. I sense you are unhappy. As in very unhappy.

And my friend, only you can fix it. Decide what you want.

I can see any choice you make may be fraught with what ifs. That's what making decisions is often about. What if I do this? What if I do something else?

The worry you have about how your sons may react is something you can deal with directly. Talk to them. Level with them. Tell them how you've come to realize that your marriage is failing, if that's where it is. And if it's as bad at your home as you describe between you and your wife, they will both already know.

And if you decide you want to leave the marriage, they should hear that from you. And if you think your wife will out you to your sons, be pre-emptive and do that yourself. Initially they may be shocked, surprised, etc., but if they know you, they will both know that you are still the same man and father who raised them.

And quite frankly, which I appreciate your concern for your sons, who you choose to love is really not their business. Especially now that they are both adults.

One last thought/question for you. Are you seeing a mental health professional? If not, you might want to start your journey there. Talking to a professional might help you sort yourself out and determine what's the best course for you and the rest of your life.

 

[chrisrobin]

Hi looking for advice on coming out to my adult sons (29 & 23). It's a complicated situation.

My wife has always known I'm attracted to men, I fell blindly in love with her because she said I love you anyway, and especially in the age of AIDS I wanted a different life with a family (marrying and having kids was also unthinkable at the time). But we are very incompatible as people she has impulsively explosive anger and an unapologetically rather right than sorry attitude about life. In my immaturity at 28 when we married, I thought living with that was my cross to bear for being accepted and that nobody else would have me..

I vowed being with a man was the one thing I wouldn't do and stuck to it for 25 years. We were intimate for the first 11, her attitudes broke my heart at that point but we were parents by then so I stuck to my vow for another 14 years.

Sparing the details, I did eventually face a point of near breakdown, out of nowhere had a salesman come on to me in a dressing room, realized I needed to face my feelings head on and allowed myself to be with a man at age 54. Driving home from the hotel where we met I looked in the rear view and said out loud, "Finally I can breathe!"

Fast forward maybe 8 years, I've been seeing another married man for about 5. He lives out of town, but mom is still in Chicago and he'd been emptying out her house for years before it finally sold. My wife caught me not being where I said I was (with him overnight instead of at a work meeting which had included overnight stays) . We had a head on conversation. I was unapologetic about the sexual contacts as a matter of mental health, since all my anxiety and guilt vanished overnight with the first encounter. She was furious the relationships had been going on for awhile.

Since that conversation she derogatorily accuses me at every turn of sneaking off to be with "my friends." At least half the time she's dead wrong, some of the time I have nothing to apologize for (like just meeting for coffee) and only rarely am I actually intimate with another man.

Recently for no related reason she exploded that she was "going to blow my cover."

What's my next move?
Should I get ahead of her coming out to my sons so they hear a balanced account first ? I have no problem telling them this is who I am, it's the second part about the relationships since the first encounter that I don't know how to discuss or fear how my relationship as Dad will change as a result. I love them both more than my own life. I hope they know that. They have both grown up to be such fine young men, both str8 but with acceptance of LGBT and even transitions.

They are also both very aware of their moms anger and lack of apology for anything and will call her on it.
Or what conversation should I initiate with my wife instead? I didn't jump to the thought of divorce, not really well off enough to afford it. But she remains steadfast in criticizing the slightest little thing, explodes at the drop of a hat and will not seek treatment. My limited connections with men are as much about experiencing a positive human relationship to keep me going as about the sex.

Did it mention complicated?
She has metastatic cancer, treatable for now but eventually it will take her.
I don't want my younger son to be saddled with caring for her by divorcing, he lives with us now while paying off school loans. I can't bear the thought of his life being derailed from marriage as mom will be in a slow decline at least another 5-10 years maybe before she starts getting seriously worse. I always sought the best care for her without hesitation even though she gives me no credit. I will take that responsibility.
My elder son is married and lives 5 hours away.
And for the time being I have my elderly and declining parents living nearby and in need of help. Dad's 94 with heart issues and cognitive decline, mom is 88 and in middle stage dementia.
I'm 64 and need to work (a demanding job as a university gift officer) another 3 years to reach retirement.

It really is time to face your demons before she gets her angry words of poison in first.
You'll be surprised, hopefully, how accepting they will be of the situation especially if they know that you are for the first time really happy - and love them both dearly.
My boys had guessed even though I was careful, but them being a single dad with their mother vanished we did live very closely. But there was a time when the pussy footing had to stop and to my life had to begin again more openly (it had got for many reasons very complicated). Nothing changed.
Your choice is to come out before she encourages them to break all contact, that would be dreadful for you and a victory - against you and them.

 

[Thom Hewson]

It really is time to face your demons before she gets her angry words of poison in first.
You'll be surprised, hopefully, how accepting they will be of the situation especially if they know that you are for the first time really happy - and love them both dearly.
My boys had guessed even though I was careful, but them being a single dad with their mother vanished we did live very closely. But there was a time when the pussy footing had to stop and to my life had to begin again more openly (it had got for many reasons very complicated). Nothing changed.
Your choice is to come out before she encourages them to break all contact, that would be dreadful for you and a victory - against you and them.

@chrisrobin Thank you for sharing. I'm back a few steps from already being separated, but I do appreciate your perspective. I just feel. so. awful. for foisting all this on my boys.

And I think the other thing to note is that by sticking with a married man whom I know has no plans to leave his wife (he has a whole other layer of complication with his work as a parochial school teacher that's even more tangled than mine if you thought that was even possible) it's not as if I've already plotted a path forward to only my own happiness to leave her for someone else like her father did to her mother. Just trying to keep it all in balance.

The most toxic part of all this is if she continues to refuse to accept that she has a part in it as well with her uncontrolled anger which affects everyone involved. That's an issue on equal footing with my other relationships that she won't herself face because in her I guess you'd say narcissistic mentality everything is always someone else's fault.

 

[Brodie888]

From my experience, people's behaviour is often a result of some kind of pay-off. Whether it is good behaviour or bad.

Your wife being angry all the time sounds like it has been an effective way of controlling people and getting people to do what she wants.

The saying "you must be a saint or stupid" is quite true. A saint sacrifices themselves while a stupid person hurts themselves and others by their decisions. As your wife was the benefactor of your choices, you are in the saint category.

In Western society, they put you in jail for 20 years for murder. Do you really believe your misdeeds deserve any further imprisonment?

Remember, as far as we know, we all have one chance at life. Don't martyr or self flagellate during what time you have left.

I would work towards living in your own place and continue to look after your wife as much as you are willing.

If she wants a divorce she will lose you as carer so that is her choice.

There is no quick solution to a problem that has festered for so long.

 

[Thom Hewson]

From my experience, people's behaviour is often a result of some kind of pay-off. Whether it is good behaviour or bad.

Your wife being angry all the time sounds like it has been an effective way of controlling people and getting people to do what she wants.

The saying "you must be a saint or stupid" is quite true. A saint sacrifices themselves while a stupid person hurts themselves and others by their decisions. As your wife was the benefactor of your choices, you are in the saint category.

In Western society, they put you in jail for 20 years for murder. Do you really believe your misdeeds deserve any further imprisonment?

Remember, as far as we know, we all have one chance at life. Don't martyr or self flagellate during what time you have left.

I would work towards living in your own place and continue to look after your wife as much as you are willing.

If she wants a divorce she will lose you as carer so that is her choice.

There is no quick solution to a problem that has festered for so long.

@Brodie888. A psychiatrist once told me "I don't know why people don't just separate... that used to happen more often in the past."

I guess I have to figure out how to make that happen financially which would likely entail selling the house. But we still have a sizeable mortgage so those proceeds are not at all the pot of gold they typically would have been.

It's not all nuts, because at some point maintaining a house, yard, mostly home taxes... not going to be the best retirement and aging in place decision.

I doubt I'd have much to live on on my own. We don't own a second home, even a weekend cottage someplace ...

But I totally get your point. Thank you.

 

[Brodie888]

@Brodie888. A psychiatrist once told me "I don't know why people don't just separate... that used to happen more often in the past."

I guess I have to figure out how to make that happen financially which would likely entail selling the house. But we still have a sizeable mortgage so those proceeds are not at all the pot of gold they typically would have been.

It's not all nuts, because at some point maintaining a house, yard, mostly home taxes... not going to be the best retirement and aging in place decision.

I doubt I'd have much to live on on my own. We don't own a second home, even a weekend cottage someplace ...

But I totally get your point. Thank you.

I would suggest renting. I don't know if you can afford a studio at least. Once your wife passes, you can make different choices then.

 

[Brodie888]

Back to the initial question. Would you regard yourself as being gay or a shade of bisexual?

I would recommend that you sit your sons down and explain that you have been aware that you are gay/bisexual for as long as you can remember. You grew up in a time where those sort of life choices weren't widely accepted, so you chose to live as a straight man.

Most importantly, you need to state that your wife has known for x number of years and you both were happy living this way.

Explain that you have been in a sexless marriage for x length of time and under different health and financial circumstances, you would have divorced when they come of age.

Recently you have decided to explore your gay side but this has not changed your desire to look after their mother through her health issues.

Explain that your wife has recently threatened to use your sexuality against you so you have decided to get ahead of it so she doesn't have that power over you and that you get the opportunity to tell them in your own way first because you believe you owe them that.

Just my suggestion. You will be outed at some point, so it's better this way I think.