What Is Your Favorite Thing About Being A Woman?

[Scarletbegonia]

As always @MickeyLee has hit on the voice of women outside the box.

my female has merely been because this is the body I got in the birth lottery. Behavior? I try to balance masculine and feminine energy, because my worldview says that balance is a goal.

Maybe in a differently socialized world, I’d have been non binary.
I never wanted to be male, but I wanted the power and safety men (well starting with boys) enjoy in this world. Day to day.
As a pacifist more than an activist, the big danger, the draft, is something I’d challenge. And subvert.

 

[Da_Big_Boss_Wife]

I love being able to have sex with pretty much any guy without having to put much effort into it. Guys have a lot of work to do.

 

[Tactfulgal]

I think women are allowed to be closer to their true selves than guys are. There's been a lot of progress in the past decades on the rights of women to be different than the stereotypical 50s stereotype. Women are still allowed to be warm, nurturing and even passive, but are also allowed to be bad-ass and confident. Other than certain industries where there's still some professional misogyny, women are permitted a wider range of cultural freedom. Men are still expected to fill a lot of the 50s stereotypes - confident, in charge, professionally successful, wealthy, assertive. And there's even more prejudice against men in traditionally female work fields that value things like "warmth" or "nurturing" that men are assumed to be less suited to, and male styles of communication are considered less desirable (I work in a traditionally female field and have seen this first hand).
You can even look at other symbols of this. Many traditional male baby names have become acceptable for girls, but the reverse is not true. Women are allowed to dress in a less traditionally feminine way and it's still seen as normal, but the same is not true for men.
None of this is to say that we don't still get treated unfairly, but I think we've benefitted tremendously from the feminist movement and cultural change. And before anyone says we get paid less, no we don't, that's an illusion of misleading statistics. I'll leave that for another time.
So there you go. I like being a woman because I think I enjoy many types of freedom that the women's rights and feminist movements have sought. That and I can get laid whenever I want and I can have multiple orgasms. Yeah you heard me!

 

[deleted924715]

And before anyone says we get paid less, no we don't, that's an illusion of misleading statistics. I'll leave that for another time.

I hope you don't leave it too long - I'm interested in what you have to say.

 

[Tactfulgal]

I hope you don't leave it too long - I'm interested in what you have to say.

Eh, I feel like that's another conversation. But basically if there's discrimination, it's a cultural expectation that women provide a disproportionate amount of the time for child care. The average man makes more than the average woman, but this difference disappears completely when you adjust for years of professional experience. A woman with 10 years experience and a man with 10 years experience get paid the same on average. So there's no wage discrimination. It's just that women are the ones that disrupt their career for children. And that's not all bad, I know women who did this because they wanted to. But if there's inequity that's where it is.

 

[deleted924715]

Eh, I feel like that's another conversation. But basically if there's discrimination, it's a cultural expectation that women provide a disproportionate amount of the time for child care. The average man makes more than the average woman, but this difference disappears completely when you adjust for years of professional experience. A woman with 10 years experience and a man with 10 years experience get paid the same on average. So there's no wage discrimination. It's just that women are the ones that disrupt their career for children. And that's not all bad, I know women who did this because they wanted to. But if there's inequity that's where it is.

Can that be the case some of the time? Yes. But not always.

The simple reason for the gender pay gap: work done by women is still valued less

Admittedly I have an interest in this subject because I work in a heavily male dominated technical discipline and have personally experienced pay discrimination so I'm very aware of the nuanced ways pay disparity manifests.

The organisation I work for has employed similar methods to this in the not-too-distant past (long but worth a watch for anyone who is either bored or interested):

 

[Scarletbegonia]

On income.
I’ve worked in male dominated fields (music production, construction oh so briefly, and I held a pilots license for fun, not profit for a few years until my eyes failed the test), and now I’m in a numbers dominated by women field.
Who do I fork over the bucks to for continuing ed?
Usually men.
Two notable exceptions, and one hopefully in the next year. But the exceptions are cancer massage, a limited spread post trauma technique, and pediatrics. Because if anyone is going to work in massage and get puked on, it’ll be women.

the men forged a “professional image” path, had the access to capital and medical connections to push themselves as experts. Many within sports.
Women in the US account for 64 percent of massage professional organization memberships. clinics like Massage Envy and most spas have a book the men first policy. Because men are afraid they’ll get excited, women fear assault (and given the number of licensed male therapists I’ve seen get arrested....). Male therapists are assumed to be stronger and deliver higher pressure. Not necessarily the case.
In clinics where I’ve worked, men get a higher starting wage/session rate. Because they have an assumed handicap (in the sports sense).

 

[Tactfulgal]

The simple reason for the gender pay gap: work done by women is still valued less

I don't know if that's true, but if it were true, it wouldn't mean that work is valued less because it's done by women. Women are more likely to be in human service fields and less likely to be in math-based fields that pay more.
I'm not disputing anyone's personal observation of gender pay discrimination, but overall, the often-quoted fact that women get paid something like 75% what men do is dishonest because it assumes that discrimination is the only explanation for that. Male Uber drivers make more than female ones, and discrimination is impossible in that setting because the customers don't know or choose the gender of their driver, and the app fixes prices regardless of who the driver is. A study found that the discrepancy is that male drivers drive more hours, and are more likely to drive Uber for a long time so they learn the best places/times to make money. Women are more likely to do it part-time for a few months and then move on.
I'm a feminist but I sometimes find myself debunking claims by women who think they're fighting for women's rights. If you assume every difference is due to discrimination, you're saying women have no power to make choices that effect their outcomes. I don't believe that and I also think a deeper dive into the numbers often reveals that the easy headline isn't where the truth is.

 

[deleted924715]

I don't know if that's true, but if it were true, it wouldn't mean that work is valued less because it's done by women. Women are more likely to be in human service fields and less likely to be in math-based fields that pay more.
I'm not disputing anyone's personal observation of gender pay discrimination, but overall, the often-quoted fact that women get paid something like 75% what men do is dishonest because it assumes that discrimination is the only explanation for that. Male Uber drivers make more than female ones, and discrimination is impossible in that setting because the customers don't know or choose the gender of their driver, and the app fixes prices regardless of who the driver is. A study found that the discrepancy is that male drivers drive more hours, and are more likely to drive Uber for a long time so they learn the best places/times to make money. Women are more likely to do it part-time for a few months and then move on.
I'm a feminist but I sometimes find myself debunking claims by women who think they're fighting for women's rights. If you assume every difference is due to discrimination, you're saying women have no power to make choices that effect their outcomes. I don't believe that and I also think a deeper dive into the numbers often reveals that the easy headline isn't where the truth is.

Debunk away. I'm not assuming anything - I was wondering what evidence you were basing such a decisive statement on because I'm genuinely interested and have read up on it in the past. There have been similar claims made here before, but the sources were always red pill-esque cherry picking articles.

I have been the woman who chose to sacrifice pay for flexibility because of childcare responsibilities. I have also been the most qualified, most experienced, only female member of a technical team (I could do everyone else's job and nobody else could do mine) with the most responsibility, yet paid the least (I emphatically did not choose that).

You would need to look at a combination of the gender pay gap and equality of pay to support a position that women are not generally paid less and you appear to be basing your opinion solely on very specific instances of the latter (apologies if I'm misunderstanding you).

Why maids are "worth" less than janitors. Why once women use their "power to make choices" to enter an historically male dominated role the pay starts to decrease (and vice versa - when men enter a role previously held by women it is "worth" more), why in sectors where employees are predominantly women, the highest paid positions still tend to be held by men, why men are more often successful when asking employers for a raise - I used to think like you, but these are the things I can't explain.

Taking a step back, why are caring professions valued less as opposed to math-based fields that pay more? I work in a traditional math-based field and I watched the nurses and carers (almost exclusively female) look after a family member towards the end of their life. They do a fucking hard job, with a lot of responsibility. I would not argue with any of them that my job is worth more than theirs, that would be ludicrous, yet somewhere along the line society has decided the monetary value of these roles is less. Why?

Following Carrie Gracie - a very high profile and well established journalist - publicising her experience and appearing before a select committee, larger companies in the UK were forced by government to report annually on the gender pay gap. It's a clunky system but there is a gap - it's closing but it exists (and I don't think anyone would accuse the UK government of being a bunch of feminists)

I'm interested to see what the post covid workplace looks like. It turns out many companies have the ability to be far more flexible than anyone asking for flexibility pre-covid could ever have hoped for. This seismic shift could be very beneficial for the work/life balance of families where employees (often women) have had to sacrifice pay for flexibility.

I'm also interested in how the UK supermarket employees case is decided. The claimants are both male and female, but the allegation is that supermarket workers have always been and continue to be paid less than depot workers for equivalent work because the roles in store were traditionally occupied by women, whilst the roles in the depot were traditionally occupied by men:

That’s Asda price: Why more than 35,000 women are bringing the UK’s largest equal pay claim

 

[Tactfulgal]

Debunk away. I'm not assuming anything - I was wondering what evidence you were basing such a decisive statement on because I'm genuinely interested and have read up on it in the past. There have been similar claims made here before, but the sources were always red pill-esque cherry picking articles.

Sure, you can cherry pick anything. Here is an good article (written by a woman) that does a pretty good job explaining why the perception of gender pay discrimination is because people quote statistics without understanding what they mean. I like this article because it references some very reliable statistics that illustrate the point. I also think it's worth noting that no matter the article, cherry picked or not, I have never seen any statistic that shows a gender pay difference for people in the same profession with the same years of experience. I've seen lots of data that shows pay equality in that situation.
Finally it's worth noting that none of this means there isn't cultural disparity - in child care and the expectations associated with it. But there's no evidence of gender pay discrimination on a macro scale.

Don't Buy Into The Gender Pay Gap Myth

 

[deleted924715]

Sure, you can cherry pick anything. Here is an good article (written by a woman) that does a pretty good job explaining why the perception of gender pay discrimination is because people quote statistics without understanding what they mean. I like this article because it references some very reliable statistics that illustrate the point. I also think it's worth noting that no matter the article, cherry picked or not, I have never seen any statistic that shows a gender pay difference for people in the same profession with the same years of experience. I've seen lots of data that shows pay equality in that situation.
Finally it's worth noting that none of this means there isn't cultural disparity - in child care and the expectations associated with it. But there's no evidence of gender pay discrimination on a macro scale.

Don't Buy Into The Gender Pay Gap Myth

The article didn't really have any data for me to get stuck into.

Unless I'm reading it wrong the article didn't debunk the gender pay gap - it said that a particular figure of 78% was debunked. I'm not sure where that figure came from in the first place? It seems to be well known in the US - they cited where it was used rather than analysis of the claim.

A link from the article you linked above said "According to the AAUW report, “even after researchers controlled for age, education, hours worked beyond full time, industry sector, marital status, and presence of children in the household, female managers still earned just 81 percent of what male managers did, leaving an unexplained 19 percent pay gap,” and later observed, “women continue to earn less than men do, even when they make the same choices.”" but the link to that report was dead.

I found a US study published in the Journal of Economic Literature that starts out with a similar figure to the 75% you mentioned, but goes on to make adjustments, yet still has a persistent unexplained gender gap - it's a long read (101 pages) and I skimmed some parts because economic modelling doesn't mean much to me, but it's interesting. From the conclusion:

"The persistence of an unexplained gender wage gap suggests, though it does not prove, that labor-market discrimination continues to contribute to the gender wage gap, just as the decrease in the unexplained gap we found in our analysis of the trends over time in the gender gap suggests, though it does not prove, that decreases in discrimination help to explain the decrease in the gap. We cited some recent research based on experimental evidence that strongly suggests that discrimination cannot be discounted as contributing to the persistent gender wage gap. Indeed, we noted some experimental evidence that discrimination against mothers may help to account for the motherhood wage penalty as well".

Link: The Gender Wage Gap: Extent, Trends, and Explanations - American Economic Association (you can download the full pdf for free)

The gender pay gap is real so it is not true to say that women are not paid less than men. Generally they are. However it is true to say the reasons behind that disparity are not always straightforward discrimination - it's a complex subject with many factors at play, not just childcare, including how skills seen as "feminine" are valued and how girls are moulded by society.


For example, if women are socialised to be feminine, do they do worse in situations where pay must be negotiated, a process where a woman may fear being viewed as pushy or aggressive? Apparently so and that isn't an unfounded concern. Although there is other research that claims it isn't that women don't ask - it's that they do and they don't get and other evidence that finds negotiating isn't a skill women do not possess, as they do well negotiating on behalf of others.

Discrimination is difficult to prove because of the lack of transparency with pay, although there have been some very high profile cases when employers were forced to be transparent. A lot of people simply don't know what their colleagues are paid. Gender pay gap reporting is to shine a light and not only make companies accountable but highlight biases they may not be aware they have. It is not *always* a case of discrimination. But sometimes it is.

I'm not trying to persuade you - you're free to believe whatever you want to. Some people believe in Jewish space lasers. I'm just trying to counteract you when you make these categoric statements.

 

[Tight_N_Juicy]

BnF came with receipts.

 

[Tactfulgal]

The gender pay gap is real so it is not true to say that women are not paid less than men. Generally they are. However it is true to say the reasons behind that disparity are not always straightforward discrimination - it's a complex subject with many factors at play, not just childcare, including how skills seen as "feminine" are valued and how girls are moulded by society.

I think this is the key. Nobody is disputing that women get paid less on average, it's just that the assumption that the bias of employers is to blame for this is mostly wrong. If anything, we should be looking at why women get more time off than men for parental leave, and the cultural attitudes about who should bear the brunt of child care. But women's choices to disrupt their career to care for children needs to be respected as a valid one, and it needs to be understood that this will mean that their earning power is reduced and this effects the statistics. Lately there's this impulse to assume that there should be no inequity - the statistics should show men and women paid exactly the same and until that happens it's unjust. I disagree - women have the freedom to make choices and we shouldn't insist that their choices be the same as men's, even if it leads to a gender pay gap. Differences do not mean discrimination, choices cause differences too.

 

[deleted924715]

I think this is the key. Nobody is disputing that women get paid less on average, it's just that the assumption that the bias of employers is to blame for this is mostly wrong. If anything, we should be looking at why women get more time off than men for parental leave, and the cultural attitudes about who should bear the brunt of child care. But women's choices to disrupt their career to care for children needs to be respected as a valid one, and it needs to be understood that this will mean that their earning power is reduced and this effects the statistics. Lately there's this impulse to assume that there should be no inequity - the statistics should show men and women paid exactly the same and until that happens it's unjust. I disagree - women have the freedom to make choices and we shouldn't insist that their choices be the same as men's, even if it leads to a gender pay gap. Differences do not mean discrimination, choices cause differences too.

You disputed it in your initial post

And before anyone says we get paid less, no we don't, that's an illusion of misleading statistics

Women get paid less after adjustment - see earlier link. I'm not sure whose assumption you are challenging.

Although I'll admit I don't know why you are so convinced the unexplained pay gap (following adjustment) is *not* employer bias (SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals) or your focus on motherhood, when male graduates, compared to female graduates, are more prevalent in the higher pay brackets before most women are mothers (Gender pay gap begins for students straight after university – report)

It is not an indisputable fact that time out of a woman's career to care for a child *must* have a detrimental effect on that career. Because I take 9 months maternity leave, 10 years of education and experience fall out of my head? Some women *do* choose to return to either a less demanding role or one closer to home for less pay. That is their choice. Although IMO it's debatable if it is a choice when there are a lack of viable alternatives.

Some women are forced into it by employers who arbitrarily refuse to be flexible in circumstances where it would cost them nothing to do so (oddly enough issues that were overcome overnight with coronavirus lockdowns that affected everyone, not just mothers) and there is evidence that working mothers are subjected to discrimination that they should not be deemed to have chosen even if they chose to have a child: https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/511799. I do not agree that people need to accept this as unavoidable. Rather than a "punishment" mindset towards women, how about employers extending part time hours and flexibility to both men and women and having clear career path progression for part time employees?

I agree the sharing of parental leave would improve matters. The Nordic countries are doing far better with this.

 

[Tactfulgal]

You disputed it in your initial posts.

Absolutely not. I disputed there's evidence of gender-based pay discrimination, not that there's a difference in average pay. This is the core confusion in the discussion about this going on in society - people are conflating differences with discrimination.

 

[Tactfulgal]

Because I take 9 months maternity leave, 10 years of education and experience fall out of my head?

No, but you're not the data point that creates the bulk of the pay difference. Lots of women take years off work for motherhood, or at least they take years off fulltime work. Those are the situations that have the biggest impact on the numbers.

 

[deleted924715]

Absolutely not. I disputed there's evidence of gender-based pay discrimination, not that there's a difference in average pay. This is the core confusion in the discussion about this going on in society - people are conflating differences with discrimination.

That's not what you said - that's why I asked you about it.

Who are these "people"? You are consistently ignoring sources where adjustments have been made to allow for education level, years in work and in some cases number of children - still leaving an unexplained pay gap. An unexplained pay gap where the authors could not rule out discrimination.

 

[deleted924715]

No, but you're not the data point that creates the bulk of the pay difference. Lots of women take years off work for motherhood, or at least they take years off fulltime work. Those are the situations that have the biggest impact on the numbers.

Experience is adjusted for in the figures. It is clear at this point you aren't reading the studies, so I'm not sure what your angle is because you aren't backing anything up

 

[Tactfulgal]

That's not what you said - that's why I asked you about it.

Who are these "people"? You are consistently ignoring sources where adjustments have been made to allow for education level, years in work and in some cases number of children - still leaving an unexplained pay gap. An unexplained pay gap where the authors could not rule out discrimination.

I'm not ignoring anything, it's just that the preponderance of the reputable information I've seen on this disagrees with your conclusion. There are indeed studies that show unexplained gaps as you're saying, but those studies are outnumbered and outweighed by far more evidence the the overall pay difference is the result of difference choices people make. The Uber example is really a microcosm - a scenario where discrimination is literally impossible and yet a pay gap exists. Uber paid big money to U of Chicago for a really comprehensive study to understand the reasons for this, and I think the conclusions they came to about the different choices men and women tend to make is a microcosm of the overall gap.
That aside I don't think we're going to agree on this and that's OK. I'm not interested in a bitter argument so I'll leave it there and will likely sign off this thread, which was of course not about this topic at all and I don't want to hijack it any more.

 

[Tight_N_Juicy]

So, when it comes down to it, it is a bias towards men because women are discriminated against in the hiring process to begin with if they're pregnant. Even though it's not supposed to be a thing, I've personally seen it happen more than once.

Not employing or giving opportunity to women to get more work experience because they're expected by society to take more of a prominent role in child raising is itself discriminatory. Men are parents too.

Just because it's not outright "we're paying you less because you are a woman" doesn't mean that when it comes down to it at the core of it that the pay gap isn't based in societal discrimination. Men should be expected to need time to raise their children too, just like women should have the same opportunities to participate in the work force and get paid the same amounts as men.

A lot of women don't "choose" to have more burden raising their children, some don't even have them intentionally. But they still end up making less..

Anyone see that shit about job loss during the pandemic? Vast, VAST majority are women, particularly women of color. Why? Our society is still structured in a way that puts most of the burden of childcare on women. A lot of these women didn't want to choose to lose their jobs *or* be able to raise their kids. It wasn't a choice. Not even close.

So, yeah. Society is still very sexist. Denying that doesn't help us progress.