Gay or Nah?

[AllieHeidi]

I don`t understand why it`s so hard for people like you to be trans-inclusive, as a society we already consider both Swyer and CAIS individuals women even though they are genetically male, why wouldn`t do the same for mtf and for ftm regarding men?

I'm not sure why you're insistent on equating a genetic chromosomal disorder to being trans. They are not the same situations and are, again, outliers. Also, those individuals are socialized as their phenotypic sex from the day they are born. Trans people are not. It is a different experience.

I wonder if you would be so insistent on saying "CAIS women are not women".

Technically they are also not women because of their intersex condition. But they were born intersex. Trans people are born male or female and purposely change their phenotype to match how they see themselves later in life.

we are social beings, the social is more important than raw genetics.

And as social beings we must accept that not all social exclusion is always rooted in hate. There is nuance.

I`ve had sex
with men who didn`t know I`m trans

Then those sexual encounters were not 100% consensual because those men were not informed about key details of the individual they were sleeping with. If someone doesn't want to date or sleep with a biological male or female regardless of that person's phenotype to the contrary, they have a right to be given the opportunity to decline such an encounter without ridicule or judgment.

As a society, we have always accommodated CAIS individuals in this situation, avoiding doing the same with trans women due to transphobia would be a moral failure.

When it comes to dating and sex (the actual topic of this thread), no one, including you, is under any moral obligation to "accommodate" people they are not attracted to by dating or sleeping with them.

I am not attracted to, nor do I want to be with men regardless of how they change their physical appearance and identify socially. I can't control the fact that I'm not attracted to trans women once I know they're trans. That doesn't make me, or others like me, transphobic.

 

[Chiballana]

Excuse me, I'm same-sex attracted. I am a woman attracted to other women who were born female. That is the very definition of being gay. All in all, biological sex absolutely matters when it comes to sexual orientation and shouldn't be disregarded as "hateful" when taken into consideration in the dating market.

That said, I would not date a trans woman because trans women are biologically male and I am not attracted to biological males in any capacity whatsoever. I take issue with being framed as a "hateful bigot" because I don't see someone else how they see themselves and happen to take that into consideration when choosing a romantic partner.

If I see someone whom I initially perceive to be a woman and find them physically attractive that makes sense because I am only attracted to women. And as stated earlier in this thread, humans are pre-wired to first experience andro/gynephilic attraction because we don't (usually) see genitals first. If at some point I find out that the individual is actually a biological male, I can't help it that my attraction instantly goes away and I'm not a "hateful person" because of it.

I 100% empathize with gay men who are only same-sex attracted and not attracted to trans men because trans men are biologically the opposite sex. The insistence that same-sex attracted individuals are hateful for not wanting to be with someone of the opposite sex is borderline (if not outright) homophobic.

It`s not how they see themselves, it`s their phenotype, that`s how we sex people in day to day life. Your issue with transness is not so much biological, but of an ontological nature. I don`t think you are hateful, at worst shallow and narrow-minded.

 

[AllieHeidi]

I don`t think you are hateful, at worst shallow and narrow-minded.

Sure. Whatever. I still don't owe trans women, or all biological women, my attraction, time, or sex and I shouldn't have to explain my reasons or be ridiculed for them.

The same applies to women who don't want to date men 5'9" and under. They're not shallow or narrow-minded. They like what they like and have a right to their preferences. Those specific men should accept that and find women who are interested in dating hobbits.

 

[AllieHeidi]

Bottom line, it's rough out here in these dating streets. We all have to accept that we won't be everyone's cup of tea for a variety of reasons. The only thing that matters is if we're comfortable with ourselves and love who we are.

At that point, it doesn't matter how others see us or why they're rejecting us for romance, sex, etc. It can get brutal being rejected and the reasons may seem "unfair." But none of that matters. If "short kings" can learn to get over it, so can trans people. Don't be that person that pushes the issue when rejected. Just take the L and move on.

 

[Chiballana]

I'm not sure why you're insistent on equating a genetic chromosomal disorder to being trans. They are not the same situations and are, again, outliers. Also, those individuals are socialized as their phenotypic sex from the day they are born. Trans people are not. It is a different experience.



Technically they are also not women because of their intersex condition. But they were born intersex. Trans people are born male or female and purposely change their phenotype to match how they see themselves later in life.



And as social beings we must accept that not all social exclusion is always rooted in hate. There is nuance.



Then those sexual encounters were not 100% consensual because those men were not informed about key details of the individual they were sleeping with. If someone doesn't want to date or sleep with a biological male or female regardless of that person's phenotype to the contrary, they have a right to be given the opportunity to decline such an encounter without ridicule or judgment.



When it comes to dating and sex (the actual topic of this thread), no one, including you, is under any moral obligation to "accommodate" people they are not attracted to by dating or sleeping with them.

I am not attracted to, nor do I want to be with men regardless of how they change their physical appearance and identify socially. I can't control the fact that I'm not attracted to trans women once I know they're trans. That doesn't make me, or others like me, transphobic.

ok, why should genetic sex prevail over phenotypic sex in the case of trans people and CAIS? Of course it is a different experience, but they are both groups which have incongruence regarding their phenotypic sex and their genetic sex, that`s why it is relevant. Stop referring to trans women as "men". How were those encounters not consensual? Would omitting a bisexual sexual orientation or a promiscuous sexual past also invalidate consent? Many people would mind, especially in the latter case. i know you`ll say that I was born male so I have to disclose that, but phenotypic sex overrides genetic sex in social interactions so I reject that premise. Trans women are not biological males and trans men are not biological females, stop spreading misinformation, once they`ve undergone a full transition they would be classified as medically induced intersex, considering they have differing elements of sex, specifically their phenotype and genotype.

 

[AllieHeidi]

ok, why should genetic sex prevail over phenotypic sex in the case of trans people and CAIS?

Because...

When it comes to dating and sex (the actual topic of this thread), no one, including you, is under any moral obligation to "accommodate" people they are not attracted to by dating or sleeping with them.

How were those encounters not consensual?

It's called "informed consent." If someone has a preference to not date or have sex with a trans person, they would not consent to sexual contact with someone they know is trans. If that same person doesn't know their sexual partner is trans, they are not giving informed consent.

i know you`ll say that I was born male so I have to disclose that, but phenotypic sex overrides genetic sex in social interactions so I reject that premise.

When it comes to dating and sex, phenotypic sex absolutely does not automatically override genetic sex for every person and it is not up to you to dictate such.

Trans women are not biological males and trans men are not biological females,

This is scientifically inaccurate.

 

[MisterB]

No one, of any demographic, has experiences that align 100% with someone else even if they belong to the same demographic.

This is very true. That's why we should not try and paint with such a broad brush when we are talking about a demographic. Each of us in a particular demographic are still unique individuals.

But to say that they're completely irrelevant is, to me, dismissive.

I can understand why you might feel that way. I don't. Because again, we should be mindful of painting an entire demographic with a broad brush.

My experiences as a same-sex attracted woman of color are not 100% aligned with other SSA WOC, but that doesn't make them irrelevant, either.

Nor does that make your experiences necessarily relevant to others in your demographic; again, each of us in an unique individual.

There are plenty of similarities and experiences.

Yes, as there are plenty of dissimilarities and unique experiences.

I would argue that homophobia and racism would be shared and quite relevant experiences in both instances.

Perhaps so. However, that doesn't mean that every person in a specific demographic, like yours, would have the same reactions or beliefs as you do.

And I am glad they found happiness and peace once their bodies matched how they perceived themselves. But true inner peace (and by extension social harmony) can only come when one not only no longer cares how others perceive them, but doesn't demand that others change their perceptions.

This is your definition of inner peace.

Those wonderful brave humans I witnessed transitioning found their inner peace once their outside matched their inside. I have to believe that they didn't give two thoughts about what others thought given their brave decisions to transition. Not something any of them were able to hide.

They were focused on changing their own perceptions about themselves. They hated that their exterior appearance belied their inner feelings. And once they transitioned, that hate went away completely. They were finally at peace.

 

[Sagittarius84]

Then those sexual encounters were not 100% consensual because those men were not informed about key details of the individual they were sleeping with.

Lord knows I'm not brave enough to ski down that steep slope......but I will cheer on the slalom you might have to deal with...lol

 

[MisterB]

No one, of any demographic, has experiences that align 100% with someone else even if they belong to the same demographic. But to say that they're completely irrelevant is, to me, dismissive.

My experiences as a same-sex attracted woman of color are not 100% aligned with other SSA WOC, but that doesn't make them irrelevant, either. There are plenty of similarities and experiences. I would argue that homophobia and racism would be shared and quite relevant experiences in both instances.

You are correct; each person in a particular demographic is unique, with unique life experiences. Some experiences may be similar, more often than not, they won't be.

Most gay people, regardless of sex, have experienced homophobia. That's where the similarity ends. Because how I was bullied as a young gay would be similar yet different from other gay men. As I am not a gay woman, I cannot speak about what you or other SSA females may have endured.

And I am glad they found happiness and peace once their bodies matched how they perceived themselves. But true inner peace (and by extension social harmony) can only come when one not only no longer cares how others perceive them, but doesn't demand that others change their perceptions.

I also wasn't stating you were calling me a hateful bigot and apologize for my lack of clarification. I was speaking in a general sense where many people have absolutely been labeled transphobic for not wanting to date or sleep with trans people. This has happened to me and others I know on a few occasions. And it's not okay.

True inner peace is unique to each of us. And from having been on transitional journeys with several friends, the true inner peace they got was from the fact that finally their exterior matched their interior! I know they didn't give two thoughts about what others thought; they were focused on getting to the finish line. You don't make such a journey when you are more focused on what others think more than your own happiness and inner peace.

I appreciate your apology; one thing I try very hard to do when I post is not make anything personal. I welcome discussion and debate. Which for all of us is based on our life experiences.

I don't like that folks get labeled anything for not wanting to sleep with someone. Sexual attraction is inherent. It's no one else's business who you find attractive and wish to get busy with. It's just not.

That's great. An unfortunate theme I observed here, however, is gay men being berated and labeled "transphobic" for not wanting to see trans men in gay porn because they don't perceive that to be gay sex. Instead of just respecting their positions and validating their feelings, they were told it was wrong to feel that way. So, of course, they went on the defensive as any one would.

The interesting thing about the porn industry is the sheer volume of porn out there. Something for everyone. That's why I don't get the judgment from those who don't want to see trans men in gay porn; find something else to watch. Not like trans men in porn is the majority of porn, lol.

I think that some of the pushback these judgmental people get from other folks is more about being judgmental itself. I will never understand how a gay man can judge others for their sexual attractions or that trans men in gay porn is somehow wrong get all upset when they are judged in return for their judgment!

We'll just have to agree to disagree, here.

And that my friend is the beauty of having a good discussion. Seems we've "listened". To each other and considered our disparate opinions and feeling about this issue.

In my perfect world, no one would give a crap about anything someone else is doing that doesn't affect them. And your sex life or my sex life doesn't not affect anyone else but us, eh? Well, except maybe those we've gotten busy with, lol.

 

[Irishdreamboy]

Some may argue that what you're describing in the bolded portion is considered a form of andromimetophilia. A 100% gay man would, understandably, not be sexually attracted to female genitalia.

You don’t have to be attracted to genitalia to like someone though, I like dick but I don’t like every man’s dick if that makes sense haha. I could like someone even be in a relationship with someone and think their dick is disgusting looking compared to someone else’s

 

[jellyfishh]

You don’t have to be attracted to genitalia to like someone though, I like dick but I don’t like every man’s dick if that makes sense haha. I could like someone even be in a relationship with someone and think their dick is disgusting looking compared to someone else’s

Exactly.

Transphobes just don't realise that not every gay man's focus is on the dick. I would much prefer a guy with a 10/10 upper body then 10/10 lower body. I'm more into abs, pecs, their face and hair then I am their arse and genitalia. Which is why there are some muscular, masculine transmen that I have found attractive. If they hadn't gotten top surgery I probably wouldn't be. Their lack of penis doesn't bother me as long as I'm sexually attracted to their upper body. I'm convinced that the people that are confused by this and are trying to dictate others' sexuality, are actually just size queens that don't care what the person looks like. As long as they have a 10 incher all is well. Men are more then just their penises, in a community where there are tops, bottoms, twinks, 'size queens', otters, cubs, bears, etc. Is it that difficult to understand that gay men are sexually attracted to different things. Not everybody is so caught up on what's in their pants. Would it make me bi if I hooked up with a guy with a micropenis/hidden penis? no. Would it make me bi if I hooked up with a guy who lost their penis in an accident? no. My attraction to a transman doesn't come from their vagina it comes from their masculine energy, masculine voice, muscular body, masculine facial structure/jawline, hair, etc. Even though i'm not sexually attracted to a vagina like I am a penis, I would make an exception for transmen because i'm attracted to the rest of their body.

 

[AllieHeidi]

In my perfect world, no one would give a crap about anything someone else is doing that doesn't affect them. And your sex life or my sex life doesn't not affect anyone else but us, eh? Well, except maybe those we've gotten busy with, lol.

Funny thing is, I agree with this sentiment 100%. I guess it's triggering when you see gay people being berated for expressing disgust in the opposite sex genitalia. Especially when said genitalia is in a porn labeled "gay." I know personally I can't even get into lesbian porn if I hear a guy's voice behind the camera. It kills the mood.

I've just noticed a trend of what appears to be homophobia wrapped in a guise of altruism and social justice activism by labeling gays "transphobic" for not wanting to see opposite sex genitalia.

I've been shamed enough for being disgusted by dick (she lamented on a website dedicated to penises ), I don't need that coming from anyone yet again, least of all people within my own community who should understand why that's triggering.

 

[MisterB]

Funny thing is, I agree with this sentiment 100%. I guess it's triggering when you see gay people being berated for expressing disgust in the opposite sex genitalia. Especially when said genitalia is in a porn labeled "gay." I know personally I can't even get into lesbian porn if I hear a guy's voice behind the camera. It kills the mood.

Perhaps it's my four years of modding here and the 8+ years of me being a member prior to that, but I'm just so tired of anonymous keyboard warriors judging and criticizing others about that which is just not their business. Just because someone doesn't understand or feel the same way as someone else doesn't make them right and the other person wrong.

I share more the sentiments of others in the thread who speak of how genitals do not make the man. Or woman. For ME, if I were single and met a transman whom I was attracted to, I would not be hesitant to get busy with him because he was lacking a penis. As I've said prior a few times, I don't recall ever seeing anyone's genitals prior to getting naked with them. And in almost all cases, was able to have a good time, regardless of it's size or appearance. As long as it and they were clean!

I've just noticed a trend of what appears to be homophobia wrapped in a guise of altruism and social justice activism by labeling gays "transphobic" for not wanting to see opposite sex genitalia.

Again, anonymous keyboard warriors seem to trigger a lot of this type of on-line crap. And we see everyday how anything related to drag queens and/or transexuals seem to trigger some groups of folks. And I daresay most of those folks are just ignorant. Maligning that which they know nothing about.

I've been shamed enough for being disgusted by dick (she lamented on a website dedicated to penises ), I don't need that coming from anyone yet again, least of all people within my own community who should understand why that's triggering.

I would think this shaming you've endured was not from just one demographic who peruse this site?

I know enough SSA women to know that you are not alone in your being "disgusted by dick".

 

[006]

For ME, if I were single and met a transman whom I was attracted to, I would not be hesitant to get busy with him because he was lacking a penis.

For ME, sex with a trans man did suffer for the lack of the genitalia that I’m attracted to. I tried my best and got through it, but I’m sure it was not as satisfying as I or he would have hoped. No doubt partly because of my lack of experience with vagina but also because vagina just doesn’t turn me on.

So, I agree that broad shoulders and a cute and/or handsome face might catch my attention but for my lust to kick in, there has to be cock and balls.

And to be honest there’s nothing hotter than a guy giving up his ass to me (or me to him.) I apologize for the vulgarity.

 

[Chiballana]

For ME, sex with a trans man did suffer for the lack of the genitalia that I’m attracted to. I tried my best and got through it, but I’m sure it was not as satisfying as I or he would have hoped. No doubt partly because of my lack of experience with vagina but also because vagina just doesn’t turn me on.

So, I agree that broad shoulders and a cute and/or handsome face might catch my attention but for my lust to kick in, there has to be cock and balls.

And to be honest there’s nothing hotter than a guy giving up his ass to me (or me to him.) I apologize for the vulgarity.

what does a guy giving you their ass have to do with this? I`m genuinely asking, didn`t get the relevance

 

[jellyfishh]

Excuse me, I'm same-sex attracted. I am a woman attracted to other women who were born female. That is the very definition of being gay.

If someone has any sexual attraction whatsoever for both sexes, even if that attraction comes with conditions (i.e. they "look male/female") that person is bisexual.

Look how defensive you get when your sexuality is questioned and yet you're out here trying to dictate others' sexualities.

I 100% empathize with gay men who are only same-sex attracted and not attracted to trans men because trans men are biologically the opposite sex. The insistence that same-sex attracted individuals are hateful for not wanting to be with someone of the opposite sex is borderline (if not outright) homophobic.

Your transphobia doesn't come from you refusing to date a transwoman. Your transphobia comes from your language and trying to dictate others sexuality because of your stance on trans people. Saying someone is bi because they're interested in cis men and trans men is transphobic. You're insinuating that a trans man is a woman. If the person is attracted to 1 gender how can they be bi?

A gay man attracted to trans men is technically also attracted to women who look like men. That's not gay. The same applies to straight women attracted to trans men. They are attracted to women who look like men.

What you're essentially saying is trans men are women in dress up. I am not attracted to women that look like men, i'm attracted to men. 99% of my attraction is to Cis men however there have been a couple times i've been attracted to trans men. So you're saying that would make me bi? If so, that's ridiculous. How can I be bi if i'm ONLY attracted to men? (99% cis men, 1% trans men).

 

[006]

Look how defensive you get when your sexuality is questioned and yet you're out here trying to dictate others' sexualities.


Your transphobia doesn't come from you refusing to date a transwoman. Your transphobia comes from your language and trying to dictate others sexuality because of your stance on trans people. Saying someone is bi because they're interested in cis men and trans men is transphobic. You're insinuating that a trans man is a woman. If the person is attracted to 1 gender how can they be bi?

What you're essentially saying is trans men are women in dress up. I am not attracted to women that look like men, i'm attracted to men. 99% of my attraction is to Cis men however there have been a couple times i've been attracted to trans men. So you're saying that would make me bi? If so, that's ridiculous. How can I be bi if i'm ONLY attracted to men? (99% cis men, 1% trans men).

Stop calling people you disagree with transphobic. It’s not helpful to the discussion.

 

[jellyfishh]

Stop calling people you disagree with transphobic. It’s not helpful to the discussion.

It is helpful to the discussion, they've said previously the purpose of the thread is to educate. They're asking if gay men who sleep with transmen are 100% gay. If they're blind to their own transphobia and can't recognise that trans men are men and not women that look like men then how are they supposed to understand why a gay man is 100% gay if they sleep with transmen? The language they use correlates to their views. If I can't address the fact that what they're saying can be seen as transphobic then how are they supposed to understand the opposing side?

 

[006]

It is helpful to the discussion, they've said previously the purpose of the thread is to educate. They're asking if gay men who sleep with transmen are 100% gay. If they're blind to their own transphobia and can't recognise that trans men are men and not women that look like men then how are they supposed to understand why a gay man is 100% gay if they sleep with transmen? The language they use correlates to their views. If I can't address the fact that what they're saying can be seen as transphobic then how are they supposed to understand the opposing side?

I have slept with a trans man and as I’ve said, to me it was not the same as the homosexual sex I’ve had all my life. The act itself, penis in vagina, is the definition of the heterosexual sex act, BUT, also to me, it didn’t seem heterosexual either.

To me there is difference. Does that make me not 100% gay? Maybe…

 

[AllieHeidi]

If they're blind to their own transphobia and can't recognise that trans men are men and not women that look like men then how are they supposed to understand why a gay man is 100% gay if they sleep with transmen?

It is not transphobic to disagree with this statement. Trans men are trans men and trans women are trans women.

Trans men are, indeed, biological women who have taken exogenous male hormones and gotten surgeries to masculinize their phenotypes. That doesn't change their DNA which is, and always will be, that of women.

I disagree that 'man' and 'woman' are just "genders." They are biological terms that distinguish life stages of human males and females (i.e the adult life stage). That's all. Being a man or a woman is not a "social construct." To give credence to this flawed ideology is to actually reinforce gender stereotypes.

Transphobia is to deny someone basic human rights such as access to healthcare, housing, education, employment etc., just because they're trans. I am 100% against that. Transphobia is not acknowledging scientific fact, and insinuating that it is, is exactly what is turning so many people off.