Gay or Nah?

[AllieHeidi]

I can`t help but think as caring about the genetic code of your sexual partner as shallow, sorry.

This is mildly straw man. We are specifically talking about biological sex which is determined at the moment of conception. Thinking it's shallow for people to care about biological sex for their sexual or romantic partners is myopic and ridiculous. Again, not sorry.

 

[MisterB]

It only matters when said personal feelings are expected to override objective truth and reality for the entire world and those who refuse to validate those feelings in their own personal lives are quickly "labeled" as hateful or bigoted.

You are entitled to feel as you do. I don't share your position on this issue. If only people focused more on themselves and fixing what's wrong with them rather than trying to fix others...

I've already explained that non-passing males identifying as lesbians have tried to hit me up on lesbian dating apps. They're allowed on there because feelings now override facts, apparently.

You are entitled to feel as you do. I don't share your position on this issue.

Very easy for you or anyone else who it his on by someone they are not interested to just say no. And move on rather than get all worked up about it.

If only people focused more on themselves and fixing what's wrong with them rather than trying to fix others...

As would most people. However, that is not the point I was trying to make, nor was it even the point that the gay men in those threads were trying to make. You had/have men identifying as 100% having vaginal sex with trans men and calling that 100% gay sex. To expect every single 100% gay person to accept this assertion and not offer protestations when such scenes make their way into gay porn is just absurd.

And no amount of arguing about this here or elsewhere is going to change anyone's mind.

To you and some gay men, sex with a FTM is not 100% gay sex. It appears for you and them, chromosomes are more important that visual.

To me and other gay men, sex with a FTM is 100% gay sex. It appears for me and them, visual is more important than chromosomes.

I don't expect anyone of any given demographic to accept any assertion that they don't accept. For whatever reason that may be. Their life experience. Ignorance. Whatever.

Moreover, if someone finds out that an individual who appears to be one sex but is biologically another sex that they're not attracted to, it is not "weird" for that person to immediately be turned off by that discovery. It's understandable.

When it's smexy time, I would bet those who focus on the biology are less than those who focus on the visual.

That's why some will be immediately turned off and others will be immediately turned on.

Just because something isn't for you or for me doesn't mean it isn't for someone else.

Bottom line, these discussions wouldn't even be occurring if a certain subset of the population wasn't so adamant about erasing the reality of biological sex and insisting those who don't share their views are hateful or "genetic/genital fetishists." That's bullshit. Not sorry.

I think you and a few other Members here have made more out of this nonissue than it really is in the real world.

What's really bullshit and stinks to high heaven are those who think that somehow their position on a given subject is the only correct one. Seldom is that the case.

And it's not the case with the topic of this thread as demonstrated by the disparate opinions that have been espoused throughout the thread.

Some of you are all about chromosomes; some of us are not. Some of us are all about the visual; some of us are not. At the end of the day, important that each of is true to ourselves. You are not interested in a FTM lesbian? Yay you!

 

[Chiballana]

It only matters when said personal feelings are expected to override objective truth and reality for the entire world and those who refuse to validate those feelings in their own personal lives are quickly "labeled" as hateful or bigoted.



I've already explained that non-passing males identifying as lesbians have tried to hit me up on lesbian dating apps. They're allowed on there because feelings now override facts, apparently.



As would most people. However, that is not the point I was trying to make, nor was it even the point that the gay men in those threads were trying to make. You had/have men identifying as 100% gay having vaginal sex with trans men and calling that 100% gay sex. To expect every single 100% gay person to accept this assertion and not offer protestations when such scenes make their way into gay porn is just absurd.

Moreover, if someone finds out that an individual who appears to be one sex but is biologically another sex that they're not attracted to, it is not "weird" for that person to immediately be turned off by that discovery. It's understandable.

If you`re attracted to someone because of their phenotypic sex but cease being attracted to them because of their genetic sex it is weird, sorry.

Bottom line, these discussions wouldn't even be occurring if a certain subset of the population wasn't so adamant about erasing the reality of biological sex and insisting those who don't share their views are hateful or "genetic/genital fetishists." That's bullshit. Not sorry.

Genitals are important for sexual activity but not genetics, that`s bullshit. Not sorry

 

[Chiballana]

This is mildly straw man. We are specifically talking about biological sex which is determined at the moment of conception. Thinking it's shallow for people to care about biological sex for their sexual or romantic partners is myopic and ridiculous. Again, not sorry.

Yes, it is shallow and ridiculous for people to care about the genetic sex of their sexual partners over their phenotypic sex, even overriding it. Not sorry about this

 

[AllieHeidi]

You are entitled to feel as you do. I don't share your position on this issue.

Clearly.

If only people focused more on themselves and fixing what's wrong with them rather than trying to fix others...

Something tells me that you don't apply this same mindset to a certain group people who get upset when others don't see them as they seem themselves.

Very easy for you or anyone else who it his on by someone they are not interested to just say no. And move on rather than get all worked up about it.

The fact that you're just brushing off lesbians being uncomfortable with males hitting on them in a space that is supposed to be specifically for women attracted to women is odd. I'm not talking about being in the grocery store and hit on by a guy.

Obviously, I've learned to adjust and politely decline. I'm talking about going into a space that is supposed to be carved out for women like me and having it, quite literally, invaded by males and many of us being ridiculed for getting bothered by this as lesbians.

To you and some gay men, sex with a FTM is not 100% gay sex. It appears for you and them, chromosomes are more important that visual.

You can literally see the vagina in this "gay" porn targeted to gay men.

When it's smexy time, I would bet those who focus on the biology are less than those who focus on the visual.

I would bet that most of those who are expecting to see a specific set of genitals on someone and seeing the opposite would not only be turned off, but would nope the fuck out of the situation immediately. I am such a person.

 

[AllieHeidi]

If you`re attracted to someone because of their phenotypic sex but cease being attracted to them because of their genetic sex it is weird, sorry.

The only legitimate "phenotypic sex" is that which was developed naturally from one's genetic sex in-utero. Medical science cannot perfectly replicate the real thing, yet. We are not there. If I don't want to interact with an inverted penis "crafted" to look like a vagina but an actual vagina I, as a lesbian, have that right.

Until science gets to a place where males can literally be changed into 100% females with XX chromosomes, real vaginas, female pheromones, etc., I'm never going to want to be with someone who was born male, will die male, and their skeletons identifiable as male by anthropologists.

 

[006]

yes, but thanks to modern science we can create those things no matter the genetics or chromosomes. Why would they include vagina? I assume they are gay.

Most trans men including the friend I had sex with had a vagina (and xx chromosomes)

 

[MisterB]

Something tells me that you don't apply this same mindset to a certain group people who get upset when others don't see them as they seem themselves.

No clue what you are referencing here. Generally I support anyone who has a disparate opinion about something as long as one positing said opinion is respectful about it. Just because I, or you for that matter, don't agree doesn't negate their feelings about said issue, eh?

The fact that you're just brushing off lesbians being uncomfortable with males hitting on them in a space that is supposed to be specifically for women attracted to women is odd. I'm not talking about being in the grocery store and hit on by a guy.

Once again, don't put words in my mouth. I've not spoken about males hitting on lesbians at LPSG. You are the first one to bring up that subject.

And to be fair to the guys who've hit on you, how were/are they to know you are Lesbian? Not indicated on your Avatar profile visible next to all your posts, eh?

What is visible is "Female" which sadly for some of the men they take as an invitation to hit on you and other Members who identify as female.

Now before you think I'm condoning such behavior, I AM NOT! I think it's abhorrent behavior for anyone to hit on any Member solely because they identify as female.

And so you know, I am one of the LPSG Staff Members who worked with the administrative team to have a Rule about unsolicited dick pics. While that doesn't prevent written communication from making it to you, I recognize that women deserve to be treated with decorum here. Which has not always been the case.

Since you also introduced the grocery store, I can assure you that women are not always the ones hit on there. I was at the help desk earlier this week because the sale price didn't ring up correctly and I was overcharged. The woman who helped me asked for my number... Rather than be offended, I was flattered. Told her sorry, I'm married.

Obviously, I've learned to adjust and politely decline. I'm talking about going into a space that is supposed to be carved out for women like me and having it, quite literally, invaded by males and many of us being ridiculed for getting bothered by this as lesbians.

I'm not sure what space you are referencing here. If it's LPSG? See my reply above as to why that may be.

You can literally see the vagina in this "gay" porn targeted to gay men.

Surely someone could find gay porn that has no "see the vagina" in what I would guess there to be millions of gay porn videos out there. Seems focusing on such a small percentage of gay porn as is being done is why this thread even exists...

I would bet that most of those who are expecting to see a specific set of genitals on someone and seeing the opposite would not only be turned off, but would nope the fuck out of the situation immediately. I am such a person.

Good for you! Doesn't make you right or wrong; just makes you you.

 

[AllieHeidi]

I've not spoken about males hitting on lesbians at LPSG. You are the first one to bring up that subject.

I never said this was happening on LPSG. This site is the exact opposite of being a space carved out for lesbians. Why would I complain about men hitting on me here if it was happening (which it's not nor has it)?

And to be fair to the guys who've hit on you, how were/are they to know you are Lesbian?

Bruh...

I've already explained that non-passing males identifying as lesbians have tried to hit me up on lesbian dating apps. They're allowed on there because feelings now override facts, apparently.

 

[MisterB]

I never said this was happening on LPSG. This site is the exact opposite of being a space carved out for lesbians. Why would I complain about men hitting on me here if it was happening (which it's not nor has it)?

You didn't, I stand corrected.

Given your clarification now, your comment " lesbians being uncomfortable with males hitting on them in a space that is supposed to be specifically for women attracted to women is odd" is odd itself.

Don't get how that has anything to do with your thread about gay men and their attraction or lack thereof to FTMs.

Bruh...

Question stands. How do they know? You wear a T-shirt? Tattooed across your forehead?

I've already explained that non-passing males identifying as lesbians have tried to hit me up on lesbian dating apps. They're allowed on there because feelings now override facts, apparently.

And this has what to do with this thread about gay men and their attraction or lack thereof to FTMs?

I'm sorry to hear your experienced that. Begs the question: So what?

What does that have to do with this thread about gay men and their attraction or lack thereof to FTMs?

 

[AllieHeidi]

What does that have to do with this thread about gay men and their attraction or lack thereof to FTMs?

I'm giving my input from a lesbian perspective on why many gay men are bothered with seeing men who identify as gay having vaginal sex in porn and still calling it "gay sex." It's the same concept with the sexes reversed. People who are same-sex attracted shouldn't have to put up with seeing (or being hit on by) the opposite sex in spaces that are supposed to be spaces for same-sex attracted people.

Not seeing PIV sex as 100% gay sex applies to a lesbian setup as well, which is why I empathize with the annoyance. If a penis is going in a vagina, it's not a gay sexual encounter. It's not necessarily 100% straight either. It's something else entirely and needs its own category/space.

 

[MisterB]

I'm giving my input from a lesbian perspective on why many gay men are bothered with seeing men who identify as gay having vaginal sex in porn and still calling it "gay sex." It's the same concept with the sexes reversed.

Speaking as a gasp, gold star gay man, I don't need any lesbian's perspective about what gay men may be bothered about or not. You are not a gay man. You'll certainly not see me weigh in about that which I don't know, which among a lot of things in this world, is lesbian sex.

People who are same-sex attracted shouldn't have to put up with seeing (or being hit on by) the opposite sex in spaces that are supposed to be spaces for same-sex attracted people.

I agree with this 100%. Still don't get why this is an issue for you given you have no dog in the hunt as a lesbian worrying about what gay men do or don't find attractive when it comes to FTM. Nor do I get how this comment is related to the topic at hand.

Safe spaces for same-sex attracted people is a topic for a different thread. Not what this thread is about.

Not seeing PIV sex as 100% gay sex applies to a lesbian setup as well, which is why I empathize with the annoyance.

Which again, I fail to see how this is relevant to the topic of this thread.

If a penis is going in a vagina, it's not a gay sexual encounter. It's not necessarily 100% straight either. It's something else entirely and needs its own category/space.

And this is the gist of my issue with this thread. This is your opinion, which you are entitled to.

As far as a penis going into a vagina, how it is regarded depends on who is involved. Some will see it as straight sex like you.

Others like myself and several others who've weighed into this thread disagree with your opinion. We see it as gay sex.

And I won't dispute that some people will see it as something else.

Who cares? Especially when it doesn't affect you? That's what I don't get.

 

[AllieHeidi]

If a penis is going in a vagina, it's not a gay sexual encounter.

This is your opinion, which you are entitled to.

Who cares? Especially when it doesn't affect you?

When you have people in our community calling what is blatantly a heterosexual encounter "gay sex" it's flirting with conversion therapy "being gay is a choice" territory. That absolutely does affect me. Words matter. Changing the definition of gay from same-sex attraction to same gender attraction is a problem.

 

[Chiballana]

The only legitimate "phenotypic sex" is that which was developed naturally from one's genetic sex in-utero. Medical science cannot perfectly replicate the real thing, yet. We are not there. If I don't want to interact with an inverted penis "crafted" to look like a vagina but an actual vagina I, as a lesbian, have that right.

Until science gets to a place where males can literally be changed into 100% females with XX chromosomes, real vaginas, female pheromones, etc., I'm never going to want to be with someone who was born male, will die male, and their skeletons identifiable as male by anthropologists.

So CAIS phenotypic sex is not real then? Gotcha. Your point about pheromones is ridiculous, considering no true human sex pheromones have ever been found. I`ve also slept with men who didn`t know I`m trans, so if pheromones were based on genetic sex then surely they would have smelled my "fakeness", no?

Not all the skeletons of genetically male individuals are identifiable as male by anthropologists, you are losing the plot here. You are not only discounting CAIS women, Swyer women and trans women who transitioned before puberty, but also trans women who transitioned later but didn`t acquire a male skeleton. I`ve evaluated my measurements here (https://anthro.cs.uni-freiburg.de/#colx=100&coly=124) and every single one of my measurements have been in the female range, most of them are female average and some of them even below female average. You are completely wrong about this.

 

[AllieHeidi]

also trans women who transitioned later but didn`t acquire a male skeleton. I`ve evaluated my measurements here (https://anthro.cs.uni-freiburg.de/#colx=100&coly=124) and every single one of my measurements have been in the female range, most of them are female average and some of them even below female average. You are completely wrong about this.

Are you not aware that the human skeleton is developed in-utero and is sexually dimorphic? Really?

 

[Chiballana]

Are you not aware that the human skeleton is developed in-utero and is sexually dimorphic? Really?

are you not aware there are exceptions to the rule and some genetically male individuals have female proportions? It is sexually dimorphic due to puberty and there are exceptions, I just told you I took all my measurements and they are female-typical.

 

[AllieHeidi]

are you not aware there are exceptions to the rule

Are you not aware that exceptions don't make the rule?

some genetically male individuals have female proportions?

You claimed that trans women that transition later in life don't have a male skeleton. This is inaccurate. Absolutely no trans women have a "female skeleton" which is not the same as having female "proportions." You are straw manning again.

I just told you I took all my measurements and they are female-typical.

That does not mean your skeleton is that of a female. This is only something that will be able to accurately be determined postmortem. That's just the reality. No amount of you trying to shift this conversation into outliers and exceptions will change the fact that PIV sex is not gay sex which is the topic of this thread. Stay on target.

 

[Chiballana]

Are you not aware that exceptions don't make the rule?



You claimed that trans women that transition later in life don't have a male skeleton. This is inaccurate. Absolutely no trans women have a "female skeleton" which is not the same as having female "proportions." You are straw manning again.

If you have female proportions you have a female typical skeleton. Why? What differentiates female skeletons from male skeletons is their proportions. Explain the difference between having a female typical skeleton and having female proportions skeleton wise... That will be interesting, since there is no difference.

That does not mean your skeleton is that of a female. This is only something that will be able to accurately be determined postmortem. That's just the reality. No amount of you trying to shift this conversation into outliers and exceptions will change the fact that PIV sex is not gay sex which is the topic of this thread. Stay on target.

Those are anthropological measurements which were compared to more than a thousand healthy typical males and females. My proportions are all in the female range and vast majority have the size of an average female, some are even lower. My measurements are bigger than they would be if my skeleton was dug up in 100 years and measured, considering I have soft tissue and am not pure bones. I will stay on topic if you cease saying untrue things, such as that no trans women have female skeletons.

 

[AllieHeidi]

I will stay on topic if you cease saying untrue things, such as that no trans women have female skeletons.

Then I'm afraid you're just going to continue to take this thread off topic if you insist on doubling-down on blatantly anti-science claims such as "trans women don't have male skeletons."

You can disagree all you want, but keep your disagreement on that specific issue to yourself and stay on topic by explaining how PIV sex is actually 100% gay sex.

Gay men don't want vagina. Gay women don't want penis. Why exactly do you think that is? Hmmmmm.

 

[Chiballana]

Then I'm afraid you're just going to continue to take this thread off topic if you insist on doubling-down on blatantly anti-science claims such as "trans women don't have male skeletons."

How is it any science to say that SOME trans women don`t have male skeletons? It is visually apparent, most have male skeletons but not all of them.

You can disagree all you want, but keep your disagreement on that specific issue to yourself and stay on topic by explaining how PIV sex is actually 100% gay sex.

It isn`t and I never claimed it was.

Gay men don't want vagina. Gay women don't want penis. Why exactly do you think that is? Hmmmmm.

I get this, I`m straight and I don`t like vagina either, I wouldn`t have sex with someone with a vagina. What I would be open to is having sex with an attractive trans man who has undergone phalloplasty.