Is a relationship even worth it anymore? Love seems dead and the gay community seems a mess.

[lostinspace94]

I have just finished about 6 months of therapy, and once again, I'm left with no real answers. As someone good looking/fit/also smart/has my world together I often wonder why I'm chronically single as someone in my 30s now. I am in the US (NY) and notice things are worser here than back home (in Europe) so I'm actually considering moving back next year.

I've done a lot of research over the years, read a bunch of stuff online, know a lot of people who are in / have been in relationships, and generally my findings are:

1. The hottest guys tend to be looking for money/a clone of themselves i.e. become escorts, OF's, working low end side jobs etc. I appreciate the economy etc is becoming difficult, and not everyone has the same opportunities, but I've noticed basically anyone who even remotely gym's is now into all of this, so finding someone fit and in the dating pool is next to non-existent. I'm not against dating someone who does this btw, they tend to want another IG influencer, someone doing the same thing etc, or a sugar daddy though. If you happen to find a hot guy who is on apps, he just wants sex, and even if it progresses a little further there are so many red flags it's not worthwhile. This includes their inability to be intimate / reliance on drugs etc which is very unattractive to me.

2. The normal guys come in a few forms:
a) In a relationship (typically open if they have options) but generally are unhappy/complaining, but unwilling to separate, usually because of economic reasons and/or loneliness reasons. These are 'contractual' relationships e.g. we share rent, or habit based relationships (I don't love you, but I don't have the energy to find someone else) in general.
b) Single but have attachment issues / trauma / poor attitudes / should really be single imo and work on themselves.

There are of course still other overarching issues e.g. white supremacy, guys looking for someone above/clone of themselves (as proven with science, leading to short lived relationships because clones never make good partners), attachment/trauma issues etc which only compound this problem. I kept getting told 'the best are taken' and the 'dating pool has left overs' but I can't believe this to be true ... if the best are taken why is there such a high divorce/seperation rate? Why has couples counselling gone up? Why is depression at an all time high? I also read a paper which said Caucasian people actually are the most depressed vs any other race.

I have probably met a small handful of gay couples who genuinely seem happy, so I know it exists and I'm definitely not pessimistic/being negative, but typically both are much older, not got a lot of other options sexually (no judgement), live in a tiny town away from everyone etc.

Given all of this, I really wonder why I am even putting in effort in trying to find someone, when the odds of it just seem worse than a powerball and the actual satisfaction within a relationship seems very limited. I am struggling to see the point anymore of partnering up, if you are financially stable and have decent friends/connections, and can get laid.

My therapist / couples have listed 'reasons' for a relationship, and I generally don't think any of them hold true (at least for me). For example, a common reason is someone to see you through life. But the data shows that something like 50%+ of gay men above 45 are single. So even if you find someone, the chances of them 'seeing you through life' are minimal. A friend or even a dog probably lasts longer lol.

Another common reason is 'someone to support you when you are sick'. Can't you just get a better health insurance and healthcare? Since we will end up in a home, isn't it better to make $ and afford better healthcare? You have no idea if your partner will be alive even and what if you have something like a stroke where you are needing wheeling around, your partner of 70 yo won't be able to 'support you'.

Another common theme is loneliness/company but I really question this. Happiness comes from inside, you have to develop deeper connections with people in general, not just your partner (many guys I know marry their partner because thats their only friend which is sad). I actually think a friendship that lasts longer is a bigger 'achievement' because its more voluntary than a partner. This is also true for 'emotional needs'. I see a lot of projection, toxicity within relationships etc so I think people need to just chill vs 'needing emotional support'. This is the same for 'having company' when travelling etc... to me that just seems like someone with low self esteem who can't go to places themselves.

Another common theme is 'intimacy' and 'sex is better with the same person'. I strongly disagree with this too. I've had much more intimate hookups (and sometimes even the first time, not even a repeat) even than half the people I speak to in relationships (one of my friends only had sex with his partner once a year and doesn't even enjoy it!). Intimacy is not 'title' or 'time' dependant, it's attitude dependant.

So I'm left wondering what the point of having a relationship in today's society is?

Rambling on but just wanted to put this out there.

 

[Kinglmao]

I have just finished about 6 months of therapy, and once again, I'm left with no real answers. As someone good looking/fit/also smart/has my world together I often wonder why I'm chronically single as someone in my 30s now. I am in the US (NY) and notice things are worser here than back home (in Europe) so I'm actually considering moving back next year.

I've done a lot of research over the years, read a bunch of stuff online, know a lot of people who are in / have been in relationships, and generally my findings are:

1. The hottest guys tend to be looking for money/a clone of themselves i.e. become escorts, OF's, working low end side jobs etc. I appreciate the economy etc is becoming difficult, and not everyone has the same opportunities, but I've noticed basically anyone who even remotely gym's is now into all of this, so finding someone fit and in the dating pool is next to non-existent. I'm not against dating someone who does this btw, they tend to want another IG influencer, someone doing the same thing etc, or a sugar daddy though. If you happen to find a hot guy who is on apps, he just wants sex, and even if it progresses a little further there are so many red flags it's not worthwhile. This includes their inability to be intimate / reliance on drugs etc which is very unattractive to me.

2. The normal guys come in a few forms:
a) In a relationship (typically open if they have options) but generally are unhappy/complaining, but unwilling to separate, usually because of economic reasons and/or loneliness reasons. These are 'contractual' relationships e.g. we share rent, or habit based relationships (I don't love you, but I don't have the energy to find someone else) in general.
b) Single but have attachment issues / trauma / poor attitudes / should really be single imo and work on themselves.

There are of course still other overarching issues e.g. white supremacy, guys looking for someone above/clone of themselves (as proven with science, leading to short lived relationships because clones never make good partners), attachment/trauma issues etc which only compound this problem. I kept getting told 'the best are taken' and the 'dating pool has left overs' but I can't believe this to be true ... if the best are taken why is there such a high divorce/seperation rate? Why has couples counselling gone up? Why is depression at an all time high? I also read a paper which said Caucasian people actually are the most depressed vs any other race.

I have probably met a small handful of gay couples who genuinely seem happy, so I know it exists and I'm definitely not pessimistic/being negative, but typically both are much older, not got a lot of other options sexually (no judgement), live in a tiny town away from everyone etc.

Given all of this, I really wonder why I am even putting in effort in trying to find someone, when the odds of it just seem worse than a powerball and the actual satisfaction within a relationship seems very limited. I am struggling to see the point anymore of partnering up, if you are financially stable and have decent friends/connections, and can get laid.

My therapist / couples have listed 'reasons' for a relationship, and I generally don't think any of them hold true (at least for me). For example, a common reason is someone to see you through life. But the data shows that something like 50%+ of gay men above 45 are single. So even if you find someone, the chances of them 'seeing you through life' are minimal. A friend or even a dog probably lasts longer lol.

Another common reason is 'someone to support you when you are sick'. Can't you just get a better health insurance and healthcare? Since we will end up in a home, isn't it better to make $ and afford better healthcare? You have no idea if your partner will be alive even and what if you have something like a stroke where you are needing wheeling around, your partner of 70 yo won't be able to 'support you'.

Another common theme is loneliness/company but I really question this. Happiness comes from inside, you have to develop deeper connections with people in general, not just your partner (many guys I know marry their partner because thats their only friend which is sad). I actually think a friendship that lasts longer is a bigger 'achievement' because its more voluntary than a partner. This is also true for 'emotional needs'. I see a lot of projection, toxicity within relationships etc so I think people need to just chill vs 'needing emotional support'. This is the same for 'having company' when travelling etc... to me that just seems like someone with low self esteem who can't go to places themselves.

Another common theme is 'intimacy' and 'sex is better with the same person'. I strongly disagree with this too. I've had much more intimate hookups (and sometimes even the first time, not even a repeat) even than half the people I speak to in relationships (one of my friends only had sex with his partner once a year and doesn't even enjoy it!). Intimacy is not 'title' or 'time' dependant, it's attitude dependant.

So I'm left wondering what the point of having a relationship in today's society is?

Rambling on but just wanted to put this out there.

I think you’re absolutely on point . I’m not sure relationships in the gay community will ever be a thing again. There of course are those who have already found someone and have a long lasting relationship but at this point I don’t think this new era is gonna birth a lot of new long lasting relationships. It’s going on in every community but it seems to strike the lgbt the worst especially since we don’t have an era where we can recall where we had a large number of gay men who had partners and were married . We fought hard to be able to get married and love but it sucks not too many of us may get the experience of it all.

 

[lostinspace94]

I think you’re absolutely on point . I’m not sure relationships in the gay community will ever be a thing again. There of course are those who have already found someone and have a long lasting relationship but at this point I don’t think this new era is gonna birth a lot of new long lasting relationships. It’s going on in every community but it seems to strike the lgbt the worst especially since we don’t have an era where we can recall where we had a large number of gay men who had partners and were married . We fought hard to be able to get married and love but it sucks not too many of us may get the experience of it all.

Agreed and my thread wasn't to be negative. It was to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. I feel like a lot of people are posting 'I will die without love' or 'I will die without a relationship' (extreme but you get my point) and I really scratch my head wondering why, when this love/relationship just seems so toxic in general.

I agree, most of the long term relationships I know of were pre social media / apps. I rarely see anyone have a long term anything now. If they are, they are 'making it work'. Tbh even those 'long term relationships' are mostly open now from what I see.

To add to the above, I didn't even include other issues like cheating, falling out of love (which is VERY common now because people are so distracted), lying, leaving when one has a health issue, sexual incompatibility (so many men are not even fully gay, still confused, or claim bi from shame etc or are swapping preferences etc), and so many other complications.

Honestly, I'm just focused on making money, keeping healthy (physically and mentally) and enjoying the experiences I get. I am aware I'm in a privileged position and live a privileged life, and by no means this was a judgement to others, but my general sense of the way things are going is everything is a revolving door, so you just have to enjoy things when they are there.

 

[Kinglmao]

Agreed and my thread wasn't to be negative. It was to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. I feel like a lot of people are posting 'I will die without love' or 'I will die without a relationship' (extreme but you get my point) and I really scratch my head wondering why, when this love/relationship just seems so toxic in general.

I agree, most of the long term relationships I know of were pre social media / apps. I rarely see anyone have a long term anything now. If they are, they are 'making it work'. Tbh even those 'long term relationships' are mostly open now from what I see.

To add to the above, I didn't even include other issues like cheating, falling out of love (which is VERY common now because people are so distracted), lying, leaving when one has a health issue, sexual incompatibility (so many men are not even fully gay, still confused, or claim bi from shame etc or are swapping preferences etc), and so many other complications.

Honestly, I'm just focused on making money, keeping healthy (physically and mentally) and enjoying the experiences I get. I am aware I'm in a privileged position and live a privileged life, and by no means this was a judgement to others, but my general sense of the way things are going is everything is a revolving door, so you just have to enjoy things when they are there.

The health issues point is a major point and problem . The younger generations doesn’t seem to understand that the body is only a temporary thing, looks go , health declines, hair thins and comes out, body fat stays around longer , muscles and knees tighten . And there of course things you can do that can help to change those things or ease the symptoms but it’s a lot more complicated than people seem to realize . And that sometimes even crosses over into sexual compatibility , a lot of health issues can change the way or even stop the person from being able to perform and sense now days everyone seems to prioritize sex as on of the key things in relationships it causes them to fall apart. I have experienced hemorrhoids and anal fissures that have come from genetic problems that happen in my colon. Of course I’m on the journey of healing but it has definitely affected my sexual life as a gay man and I have even developed anxiety around anal sex. I do like to bottom but since I can’t some of guys who I peruse relationships with kinda get turned off even if they aren’t strictly top or strictly bottoms . As a gay man it’s hard for some of us , especially if we have great personality but don’t fit the standards. I also think people aren’t as sexually open as they seem , the need penetration to feel satisfied with sex and don’t try other things to please their partners . That can sometimes be a factor in why people cheat. Plus I feel like a lot of couples like their partners looks and surface qualities and personality but don’t ever dig deep to get to know a person truly.

 

[lostinspace94]

The health issues point is a major point and problem . The younger generations doesn’t seem to understand that the body is only a temporary thing, looks go , health declines, hair thins and comes out, body fat stays around longer , muscles and knees tighten . And there of course things you can do that can help to change those things or ease the symptoms but it’s a lot more complicated than people seem to realize . And that sometimes even crosses over into sexual compatibility , a lot of health issues can change the way or even stop the person from being able to perform and sense now days everyone seems to prioritize sex as on of the key things in relationships it causes them to fall apart. I have experienced hemorrhoids and anal fissures that have come from genetic problems that happen in my colon. Of course I’m on the journey of healing but it has definitely affected my sexual life as a gay man and I have even developed anxiety around anal sex. I do like to bottom but since I can’t some of guys who I peruse relationships with kinda get turned off even if they aren’t strictly top or strictly bottoms . As a gay man it’s hard for some of us , especially if we have great personality but don’t fit the standards. I also think people aren’t as sexually open as they seem , the need penetration to feel satisfied with sex and don’t try other things to please their partners . That can sometimes be a factor in why people cheat. Plus I feel like a lot of couples like their partners looks and surface qualities and personality but don’t ever dig deep to get to know a person truly.

Exactly, 100% agree. Especially that last line. That is spot on.

This also more fundamentally stems from a selfish attitude that is increasing in the West. This 'I want X so I should get X regardless' type of mindset. So when your partner has some issue or is going through something, rather than work through things with them, its like dump and exchange. Or partial dump (if you are linked in other ways where you can't split e.g. finances) but its still basically a checked out approach because its 'me first'. I am so tired of seeing that in people in relationships (and even singles who are looking for someone), there is just no concept of adjusting and compromising in a healthy way. When I try and reason with people here on this, they get 'angry' at me, defending their stance, and then you know there is something fishy going on internally there.

I also think modern medicine has also skewed things. Maintaining 'looks' has become somewhat easier (botox, surgery, steroids, hair transplants etc) than ever before so people remain in "peter pan" phase I think for too long. 40+ year old men are hotter than ever, but mentally, I find they are more 'behind' than ever too.

There was a really interesting book a Harvard professor wrote about happiness and modern dating. He spoke about how you should find someone complementary, not a clone, because love is basically in the gap of differences. But apps are designed to find 'your clone' because they are algorithms. When people truly understand this, I think everyone would be happier. But porn, social media, and otherwise just propels the narrative of 'clones' and it is really destroying lives.

 

[Kinglmao]

Exactly, 100% agree. Especially that last line. That is spot on.

This also more fundamentally stems from a selfish attitude that is increasing in the West. This 'I want X so I should get X regardless' type of mindset. So when your partner has some issue or is going through something, rather than work through things with them, its like dump and exchange. Or partial dump (if you are linked in other ways where you can't split e.g. finances) but its still basically a checked out approach because its 'me first'. I am so tired of seeing that in people in relationships (and even singles who are looking for someone), there is just no concept of adjusting and compromising in a healthy way. When I try and reason with people here on this, they get 'angry' at me, defending their stance, and then you know there is something fishy going on internally there.

I also think modern medicine has also skewed things. Maintaining 'looks' has become somewhat easier (botox, surgery, steroids, hair transplants etc) than ever before so people remain in "peter pan" phase I think for too long. 40+ year old men are hotter than ever, but mentally, I find they are more 'behind' than ever too.

There was a really interesting book a Harvard professor wrote about happiness and modern dating. He spoke about how you should find someone complementary, not a clone, because love is basically in the gap of differences. But apps are designed to find 'your clone' because they are algorithms. When people truly understand this, I think everyone would be happier. But porn, social media, and otherwise just propels the narrative of 'clones' and it is really destroying lives.

I think the clone idea expands itself beyond just people wanting themselves but people wanting a clone of someone they have already dated or see on social media, tv , or any kind of celebrity they get attached to . also since not many people value personalities or try new things , they cannot fathom or even dream of something that doesn’t fit into their “ vision” of what their life should be . People would rather sacrifice their mental health for a better physical appearance even if it comes with surgery or pills or even unsafe practices.

 

[lostinspace94]

I think the clone idea expands itself beyond just people wanting themselves but people wanting a clone of someone they have already dated or see on social media, tv , or any kind of celebrity they get attached to . also since not many people value personalities or try new things , they cannot fathom or even dream of something that doesn’t fit into their “ vision” of what their life should be . People would rather sacrifice their mental health for a better physical appearance even if it comes with surgery or pills or even unsafe practices.

Exactly. And then they wonder why they don't feel fulfilled / not growing etc.

 

[Kinglmao]

Exactly. And then they wonder why they don't feel fulfilled / not growing etc.

yeah it’s definitely hard for relationships. When our community mostly seems to be filled with shallow people who lack emotional depth or sometimes any depth.

 

[lesshake]

My therapist / couples have listed 'reasons' for a relationship, and I generally don't think any of them hold true (at least for me). For example, a common reason is someone to see you through life. But the data shows that something like 50%+ of gay men above 45 are single. So even if you find someone, the chances of them 'seeing you through life' are minimal. A friend or even a dog probably lasts longer lol.

Gosh, I wonder if something might have happened to the Gen X and older gays in the 80s and 90s!

 

[Topher the Gopher]

tldr: Your first mistake was settling in New York. Try a more rural area and you'll find more down-to-earth people instead of Tiktok types.

 

[Lilyoftheghetto]

I have often been perplexed about the heavy concentration in the gay male community on body image and finding a man who is "physically fit". Honestly, I don't know any "fat" single heterosexual men. Women tend not to place as much importance on that and tend to focus on other much more important things. Therefore, "fat" men who have their shit together don't have a problem finding and keeping a woman. As a gay man, trust me, when I was younger, I wanted physically fit men. And I had them. However, those physically fit men ALWAYS came along with a ton of problems, most of them which you already covered. First of all, everyone one else wants them so good luck with that if monogamy is important to you. As I have gotten older and wiser, I don't pay much attention to a man's weight. Of course I want someone who I am attracted to. But your FICO score is the number I am most concerned about. That is the number than will open or close a lot of doors for you when you are trying to accomplish things in life. I also want to know if you have a career? How long have you been in this career? These are the numbers I care about as I get older. The scale means very little to me because if you want to build a life with someone and say you want to buy a house together, lenders are not looking at the numbers on the scale or your abs. But, at the end of the day, it comes down to character for me. Too many gay men will settle for a drug addicted, cheating, irresponsible, compulsive liar...but he has a great body. I have been there, done that. Not being able to find a good partner has always been a problem for the majority of men in the gay community I feel primarily because we just put so much unrealistic focus on physical appearance and youth. Everything that glitters ain't gold. I learned that the hard way and wasted my best years chasing all the wrong men. Now I know better but still can't find a man bc even though I am a very established man, no I don't spend hours in the gym and, in the gay community, I am considered elderly (50) LOL!

 

[Kinglmao]

I have often been perplexed about the heavy concentration in the gay male community on body image and finding a man who is "physically fit". Honestly, I don't know any "fat" single heterosexual men. Women tend not to place as much importance on that and tend to focus on other much more important things. Therefore, "fat" men who have their shit together don't have a problem finding and keeping a woman. As a gay man, trust me, when I was younger, I wanted physically fit men. And I had them. However, those physically fit men ALWAYS came along with a ton of problems, most of them which you already covered. First of all, everyone one else wants them so good luck with that if monogamy is important to you. As I have gotten older and wiser, I don't pay much attention to a man's weight. Of course I want someone who I am attracted to. But your FICO score is the number I am most concerned about. That is the number than will open or close a lot of doors for you when you are trying to accomplish things in life. I also want to know if you have a career? How long have you been in this career? These are the numbers I care about as I get older. The scale means very little to me because if you want to build a life with someone and say you want to buy a house together, lenders are not looking at the numbers on the scale or your abs. But, at the end of the day, it comes down to character for me. Too many gay men will settle for a drug addicted, cheating, irresponsible, compulsive liar...but he has a great body. I have been there, done that. Not being able to find a good partner has always been a problem for the majority of men in the gay community I feel primarily because we just put so much unrealistic focus on physical appearance and youth. Everything that glitters ain't gold. I learned that the hard way and wasted my best years chasing all the wrong men. Now I know better but still can't find a man bc even though I am a very established man, no I don't spend hours in the gym and, in the gay community, I am considered elderly (50) LOL!

You’re not wrong at all. I am also guilty of dating the wrong guy because he’s physically fit . I’m also trying to get over the age issue, men who are younger I tend to stay away from due to trauma and older men I never trust or truly appreciate. I’m also trying to date outside my race for the first time but I have to be more open and not just open to one thing . The gay dating scene is so hard it might just better die alone.

 

[lostinspace94]

tldr: Your first mistake was settling in New York. Try a more rural area and you'll find more down-to-earth people instead of Tiktok types.

Here to get financially independent and am about a few years out tbh. No plans to stay here forever. Any recommendations of places are welcome, would holiday there to see if I like it meanwhile.

That said, I have many contacts in rural areas, all who complain and/or sometimes seem even more toxic than the city guys. I guess because its "hidden" it is not as apparent as it is in a city like NY.

 

[lostinspace94]

I have often been perplexed about the heavy concentration in the gay male community on body image and finding a man who is "physically fit". Honestly, I don't know any "fat" single heterosexual men. Women tend not to place as much importance on that and tend to focus on other much more important things. Therefore, "fat" men who have their shit together don't have a problem finding and keeping a woman. As a gay man, trust me, when I was younger, I wanted physically fit men. And I had them. However, those physically fit men ALWAYS came along with a ton of problems, most of them which you already covered. First of all, everyone one else wants them so good luck with that if monogamy is important to you. As I have gotten older and wiser, I don't pay much attention to a man's weight. Of course I want someone who I am attracted to. But your FICO score is the number I am most concerned about. That is the number than will open or close a lot of doors for you when you are trying to accomplish things in life. I also want to know if you have a career? How long have you been in this career? These are the numbers I care about as I get older. The scale means very little to me because if you want to build a life with someone and say you want to buy a house together, lenders are not looking at the numbers on the scale or your abs. But, at the end of the day, it comes down to character for me. Too many gay men will settle for a drug addicted, cheating, irresponsible, compulsive liar...but he has a great body. I have been there, done that. Not being able to find a good partner has always been a problem for the majority of men in the gay community I feel primarily because we just put so much unrealistic focus on physical appearance and youth. Everything that glitters ain't gold. I learned that the hard way and wasted my best years chasing all the wrong men. Now I know better but still can't find a man bc even though I am a very established man, no I don't spend hours in the gym and, in the gay community, I am considered elderly (50) LOL!

It is interesting you say this because I guess I've seen a somewhat different side of this.

A good number of my straight male friends are "fat" and are single and they have their shit together. They get no attention on apps, hookups or otherwise. So I'm not sure your comment about women is always true, it also depends on the women (more women are "fat" relatively also).

I know plenty 'normal' bodied men who behave in the same ways, sometimes even worse, than the 'fit' guys. I'm not defending the "fit guys" but I'm just saying that a drug addict, narcissist, cheater, liar etc are all qualities I've seen in completely normal gay men so its not exclusive to gay men. They 'settle' for what they can get in return for something usually e.g. its better to have a fit body and someone to split rent with but I'll accept he cheats on me (for example). Most people have to make trade-offs. Sometimes I find the "bodybuilder" type guys are actually quite soft inside and not as manipulative as a 6-7/10 guy who probably has a 'wider net' in general. Ofc some are just total assholes lol.

Its also interesting for me personally as I've always had a 'fit body' (I am genetically blessed so generally I'm pretty lean and they show, I also spend max 2-3 hours in a gym a week and just eat relatively clean but pizza etc also). I keep fit because I know about some genetic conditions in my family so keeping fit/eating clean is more to make sure my body is aging gracefully, not for some attention. Yet I never had more than a hookup, probably because I'm seen/treated like a sexual object and guys are just looking for "better" all the time. It also doesn't help I'm not white I guess so automatically "less desirable" somehow.

I've never chased a "ft body". I'm actually into faces + attitudes (which I think is the same as character that you are thinking) more. And I would say the vast majority I followed up with did not have the body I have, but there was just something about them that interested me. None reciprocated so far. No idea why. That said, generally, I've been pretty disappointed on the character front in general with gay men, and the faces are just declining in general lmao.

I also have always been invested in my career (10+ years now) which I honestly love and will do even if I can retire early. I am also an established man, yet someone, am chronically single. Though I am re-evaluating this as a blessing, as I've yet to hear a story of a happy gay couple, both of who are in a partnership (whatever the label) of actual equals (I don't mean materialistically, I mean 'from the soul'). Given the move to open relationships, I even wonder if I even need one anymore, as I'm pretty content with my life as it is tbh.

 

[michael_3165]

Hmm. Whilst I want to be validating and sensitive , I also want to be honest.

@lostinspace94 has such a bleak view on relationships, its so sad.

Firstly, there are loads of generalisations in the OP that don't seem to be based on much but personal experience and anecdotal evidence.

There are also huge judgments in the post and I wonder if that attitude leaks into conversations w guys. For a group that are often shamed by their appearance or sexuality, one would ideally be extra cautious not to seem judgmental when looking for dates.

I think people often look for people in their "value" bracket. That said, I do suspect that some of egocentric self-sexualisation (autosexuality) with those types. If you are objectified within the scene it makes sense your whole self is wrapped up in looks and persona.

The fact is all relationships are hard work. When one lives like Peter Pan it is hard to settle when "better" may be around the corner. This is where I do suspect there is an issue in the gay population: there are few guardrails because men appear to be much less inhibited sexually than women and so there is often a lack of boundaries enforced.

In short, decades of shame about being gay perpetrated by the media and bullying in society has traumatised many gay men. Whilst it is getting better socially, the outsider status alone is enough to challenge even the most sane. Put two potentially traumatised men together w less inhibitions in a world that demands conformity, it's a recipe for misery. And I say this as someone who was in gay relationships for years..

 

[JiaFei_Dai]

My understanding and opinions also have their limitations, and of course they cannot represent the general situation in the world.

I don't think it's a gay issue. It's the same for gays and straights. The influence of socio-cultural environment and economic level is always taken into account.

Neither marriage nor love are necessary. Love has always been rare. The essence of marriage is to live together as partners, share risks, and improve one's ability to withstand risks.

People who have the ability to score 80 points will not be willing to stop at 60 points.
Good looks and good financial conditions are all advantages in choosing a mate. Good-looking people will look for equally good-looking people, or people with financial advantages. This is human nature.

Are heterosexuals better at relationships? Are there really so many happy couples? I don't think so. Heterosexuals may be more susceptible to traditional values. They need to marry and have children at the right time to meet society's expectations. When problems arise in a relationship, they are more likely to pretend that nothing is wrong in order to preserve their dignity.

Moreover, patriarchy’s oppression of women was even more severe in the past. Many women "have" to get married, rely on men, and keep a low profile to please men in order to avoid being abandoned by men. Today, women are treated slightly better. Most women can be financially independent without having to marry a man. Heterosexual marriage rates are also down (at least in my area). A high divorce rate is also a good thing. It shows that people are waking up and no longer pretending that everything is fine and living in painful marriages.

“White people are more depressed than other races” made me faint with laughter. I don't deny the suffering of white people, but I can only assume that white people see psychiatrists at the highest rates. After all, worrying about psychological problems is even a "privilege." People in backward areas cannot even afford to see a psychologist, let alone be included in a database as a reference and written into a paper.

People with good looks and strong personalities are more likely to go viral and attract attention online.
There must be a lot of gay people with average looks and down-to-earth personalities who just aren't "seen"

Someone mentioned why gay men have higher requirements for appearance, because in this patriarchal society, you men are used to being in a position of "scrutiny".
In your case as a gay person, you are both the censor and the censored.
Heterosexual men, on the other hand, don’t have to pay so much attention to appearance because they are not in a position to be “scrutinized”…

 

[heinz.friedrich]

Interesting thread.

Gosh, I wonder if something might have happened to the Gen X and older gays in the 80s and 90s!

The place where the people meet is different. They meet through the internet. And the internet is constructed in a way to make you addicted.

I watched a documentary about a young girl that did not know what she should wear and she was devastated about it and the psychiatrist just reduced the dresses in the wardrobe and suddenly she was happy again.

I think for mating this works the same way.

You have to much choice therefore you can either not decide like this little girl in the documentary or you increase your standard and that is usually through becoming more shallow.

There is a video about women, but I think that also applies to men. He shows a diagram how heterosexual and homosexual couples meet.

Also in the video fathers and mothers look less on the appearance of their childrens partner. But they also were less influenced through the internet. So the internet makes you more shallow, because you have more selection. And if you have more selection, you try for the more attractive first.

 

[heinz.friedrich]

... if the best are taken why is there such a high divorce/seperation rate? Why has couples counselling gone up? Why is depression at an all time high?

I have probably met a small handful of gay couples who genuinely seem happy, so I know it exists and I'm definitely not pessimistic/being negative, but typically both are much older, not got a lot of other options sexually (no judgement), live in a tiny town away from everyone etc.

I was in an esoteric site that concentrated on studies for some time. They always mentioned the Coolidge Effect. You are basically attracted to "newness" but that desire to newness is basically an addiction. You concentrate more on the look. Porn increases this Coolidge effect.

The Coolidge Effect

The rats in the experiment were pretty exausted after they slept with a lot of female rats. And depression is just buy definition a lack of energy. So you deplete your energy with this sex addiction. If you have only one female rat, the effect is less.

In my opinion, monogamy is the better form of a relationship, because of this effect. But a lot of people in the media somehow advertise the opposite.

My therapist / couples have listed 'reasons' for a relationship, and I generally don't think any of them hold true (at least for me). For example, a common reason is someone to see you through life. But the data shows that something like 50%+ of gay men above 45 are single. So even if you find someone, the chances of them 'seeing you through life' are minimal. A friend or even a dog probably lasts longer lol.

Another common reason is 'someone to support you when you are sick'. Can't you just get a better health insurance and healthcare? Since we will end up in a home, isn't it better to make $ and afford better healthcare?

Yes. You just need a person that thinks the same as you and also want to improve their character and you both have to fight the Coolidge effect.

 

[chrisrobin]

In my day, before the advent of the internet things were a lot more simple. Then the world opened up, promises were made and broken - oh yes, and gay lib.
Suddenly the world burst out of its closet, paraded itself, was open and from that point on disaster.
One guy claimed to be the world was his oyster but I wasnt a pearl - I'd agree - and so trolled on seeking who knows what.
Freedom and the fear of committing to anything drive relationships apart.
The grass really isnt any green on the other side of the fence.

 

[Cum_is_Great]

As someone good looking/fit/also smart/has my world together I often wonder why I'm chronically single as someone in my 30s now.

The hottest guys tend to be looking for money/a clone of themselves i.e. become escorts, OF's, working low end side jobs etc. I appreciate the economy etc is becoming difficult, and not everyone has the same opportunities, but I've noticed basically anyone who even remotely gym's is now into all of this, so finding someone fit and in the dating pool is next to non-existent.

Honestly, I'm just focused on making money, keeping healthy (physically and mentally) and enjoying the experiences I get. I am aware I'm in a privileged position and live a privileged life, and by no means this was a judgement to others, but my general sense of the way things are going is everything is a revolving door, so you just have to enjoy things when they are there.

Well, it is possible the other hot guys like you are ALSO doing the same. Its just that their career path or ways of making money differ. They make money off their hot bodies, incentives to stay fit as a result and enjoying the experiences OF/escort/side gigs give them as well. They too realize everything is fleeting and a revolving door so they enjoy that life and experiences as they can. Basically, they are just doing the same as yourself, but the paths diverge.

I have often been perplexed about the heavy concentration in the gay male community on body image and finding a man who is "physically fit"

As a gay man, trust me, when I was younger, I wanted physically fit men. And I had them.

Too many gay men will settle for a drug addicted, cheating, irresponsible, compulsive liar...but he has a great body. I have been there, done that

You’re not wrong at all. I am also guilty of dating the wrong guy because he’s physically fit .

Its also interesting for me personally as I've always had a 'fit body' (I am genetically blessed so generally I'm pretty lean and they show, I also spend max 2-3 hours in a gym a week and just eat relatively clean but pizza etc also). I keep fit because I know about some genetic conditions in my family so keeping fit/eating clean is more to make sure my body is aging gracefully, not for some attention. Yet I never had more than a hookup, probably because I'm seen/treated like a sexual object and guys are just looking for "better" all the time.

I've never chased a "ft body". I'm actually into faces + attitudes (which I think is the same as character that you are thinking) more. And I would say the vast majority I followed up with did not have the body I have, but there was just something about them that interested me.

I honestly wonder if you ever *actively* seeked out a "ugly" gay guy. A fat guy. No not UK fat. American Fat. Obese, belly jiggle, man boobs, and everything. Cause just as there are down to earth loving and caring fit guys, there are the same for fat guys but they are not desired. I remember you @lostinspace94 from your topic of the gay dating hierarchy. It's absolutely a thing amd us obese men are not seeked out unless its a fetish/kink. They like our fatness and basically thats it. But talking to and seeking out "unattractive" men is anathema to gay dating and human nature.

I take notice of how people describe when they are into "all types" and always see it framed as something similar to "skinny to muscular". E.g "Twinks to bodybuilders and everything in between" but what is between skinny and muscle? Fat is outside of that. Rarely ever do I read that people who claim to be into all types, and have no restrictions say, "I've dated some lovely very obese or fat men." Its almost like we are invisible.

just as @Kinglmao and @Lilyoftheghetto admitted, gay guys go through that phase. But that is THE dating phase. Notice both had to have "been there, done that" BEFORE possibly realizing the superficiality of it all. And so, other gay men, who havent gone through the same experiences to realize that same continue to perpetuate the hierarchy of natural human male nature, and the fit, attractive and sexy will always just have their fun hooking up with everyone but never actually dating.

I'm not meaning to shame or critique you guys for any of that. It's damn near universal. Its just that its very easy to see it all as someone from "outside" the desired group, outside the privileges looking in, and reflecting from my own experiences trying to interact with them.

There must be a lot of gay people with average looks and down-to-earth personalities who just aren't "seen"

Absolutely! But then some of those guys also may not have EVER had a relationship or hookup and now they are jaded, depressed and further removed from the "dating pool". If physically fit, hot sexy men get rejected or have difficulty, just try to imagine the life of a fat, ugly gay. You think they are on the apps? In the clubs? At the gay events with the hundreds of hard body abs muscle guy gays to "compete"? Sure maybe a handful, but on the whole? Fuck no lol. Even the "fat" part of gay community, the "bears" are slowly just becoming what used to be called "muscle bears". Just very muscled and built men with lots of bodyfat but not to the point of jiggle, hang, or boobs.

And obviously I understand that being in shape is better not just for attracting people but for overall personal health. But seriously, if you never have been fat, never been in such a situation of depression, never actively viewed life outside of the top of gay men and how things are portrayed in porn, social media, television and movies, then people don't think about the struggle others go through or have the ability to empathize with them.

Im not saying everyone should be dating fat people. Or that I am shaming people for not challenging natural human nature and instincts. But since we do have the ability to think, rationalize and empathize, maybe we should reflect a bit to understand why things are the way they are and how others may also be in a similar or much worse situation, portrayed by the simple fact that no one actually self-reflects, challenges themselves or emapthizes with others outside of their "group".