Is a relationship even worth it anymore? Love seems dead and the gay community seems a mess.

[Kinglmao]

All this is good stuff . I’m researching the Coolidge effect and more about monogamy and polygamy. But as I read I’m coming to the conclusion I was born in the wrong era .

 

[bigboaster]

I have often been perplexed about the heavy concentration in the gay male community on body image and finding a man who is "physically fit". Honestly, I don't know any "fat" single heterosexual men. Women tend not to place as much importance on that and tend to focus on other much more important things. Therefore, "fat" men who have their shit together don't have a problem finding and keeping a woman. As a gay man, trust me, when I was younger, I wanted physically fit men. And I had them. However, those physically fit men ALWAYS came along with a ton of problems, most of them which you already covered. First of all, everyone one else wants them so good luck with that if monogamy is important to you. As I have gotten older and wiser, I don't pay much attention to a man's weight. Of course I want someone who I am attracted to. But your FICO score is the number I am most concerned about. That is the number than will open or close a lot of doors for you when you are trying to accomplish things in life. I also want to know if you have a career? How long have you been in this career? These are the numbers I care about as I get older. The scale means very little to me because if you want to build a life with someone and say you want to buy a house together, lenders are not looking at the numbers on the scale or your abs. But, at the end of the day, it comes down to character for me. Too many gay men will settle for a drug addicted, cheating, irresponsible, compulsive liar...but he has a great body. I have been there, done that. Not being able to find a good partner has always been a problem for the majority of men in the gay community I feel primarily because we just put so much unrealistic focus on physical appearance and youth. Everything that glitters ain't gold. I learned that the hard way and wasted my best years chasing all the wrong men. Now I know better but still can't find a man bc even though I am a very established man, no I don't spend hours in the gym and, in the gay community, I am considered elderly (50) LOL!

Seems like someone isn't familiar with a little group we call incels.

There are plenty of lonely single straight men out there, some fat some not who for just like you view women as hyper focused on "attractive" high status males. They view everything through the binary lens of physical appearance or financial status whne it comes to dating.

Quite frankly it's bleak and defeatist and just perpetuates the cycle of self victim hood

 

[Topher the Gopher]

Here to get financially independent and am about a few years out tbh. No plans to stay here forever. Any recommendations of places are welcome, would holiday there to see if I like it meanwhile.

That said, I have many contacts in rural areas, all who complain and/or sometimes seem even more toxic than the city guys. I guess because its "hidden" it is not as apparent as it is in a city like NY.

Well, I originally came from the Mid-Ohio Valley. It's nice enough, and historic, but the pollution is awful and from what I hear, meth has arrived there.

The area I live in now is very rural, but Hawaii is far from the paradise the tourist industry would have us believe. A lot of theft and drugs, not to mention crazy homeless people.

I don't think anywhere in America is safe anymore, but I'd still rather be here than in, say, Honolulu or Los Angeles.

 

[Topher the Gopher]

Well, it is possible the other hot guys like you are ALSO doing the same. Its just that their career path or ways of making money differ. They make money off their hot bodies, incentives to stay fit as a result and enjoying the experiences OF/escort/side gigs give them as well. They too realize everything is fleeting and a revolving door so they enjoy that life and experiences as they can. Basically, they are just doing the same as yourself, but the paths diverge.













I honestly wonder if you ever *actively* seeked out a "ugly" gay guy. A fat guy. No not UK fat. American Fat. Obese, belly jiggle, man boobs, and everything. Cause just as there are down to earth loving and caring fit guys, there are the same for fat guys but they are not desired. I remember you @lostinspace94 from your topic of the gay dating hierarchy. It's absolutely a thing amd us obese men are not seeked out unless its a fetish/kink. They like our fatness and basically thats it. But talking to and seeking out "unattractive" men is anathema to gay dating and human nature.

I take notice of how people describe when they are into "all types" and always see it framed as something similar to "skinny to muscular". E.g "Twinks to bodybuilders and everything in between" but what is between skinny and muscle? Fat is outside of that. Rarely ever do I read that people who claim to be into all types, and have no restrictions say, "I've dated some lovely very obese or fat men." Its almost like we are invisible.

just as @Kinglmao and @Lilyoftheghetto admitted, gay guys go through that phase. But that is THE dating phase. Notice both had to have "been there, done that" BEFORE possibly realizing the superficiality of it all. And so, other gay men, who havent gone through the same experiences to realize that same continue to perpetuate the hierarchy of natural human male nature, and the fit, attractive and sexy will always just have their fun hooking up with everyone but never actually dating.

I'm not meaning to shame or critique you guys for any of that. It's damn near universal. Its just that its very easy to see it all as someone from "outside" the desired group, outside the privileges looking in, and reflecting from my own experiences trying to interact with them.

Absolutely! But then some of those guys also may not have EVER had a relationship or hookup and now they are jaded, depressed and further removed from the "dating pool". If physically fit, hot sexy men get rejected or have difficulty, just try to imagine the life of a fat, ugly gay. You think they are on the apps? In the clubs? At the gay events with the hundreds of hard body abs muscle guy gays to "compete"? Sure maybe a handful, but on the whole? Fuck no lol. Even the "fat" part of gay community, the "bears" are slowly just becoming what used to be called "muscle bears". Just very muscled and built men with lots of bodyfat but not to the point of jiggle, hang, or boobs.

And obviously I understand that being in shape is better not just for attracting people but for overall personal health. But seriously, if you never have been fat, never been in such a situation of depression, never actively viewed life outside of the top of gay men and how things are portrayed in porn, social media, television and movies, then people don't think about the struggle others go through or have the ability to empathize with them.

Im not saying everyone should be dating fat people. Or that I am shaming people for not challenging natural human nature and instincts. But since we do have the ability to think, rationalize and empathize, maybe we should reflect a bit to understand why things are the way they are and how others may also be in a similar or much worse situation, portrayed by the simple fact that no one actually self-reflects, challenges themselves or emapthizes with others outside of their "group".

I wouldn't say I like "all kinds," as I wouldn't be into skeletally thin or gigantic muscles, but I do like fat guys and have been with a fair few. If they have a handsome (IMO) face and good hygiene, I do like big bellies, butts, and boobs.

 

[JustBeingNosy]

I don’t know what to think either but definitely agree with the original post. I don’t have Europe to compare and live in the south and I’m not sure if that’s an additional layer of complication or what.. I feel like I’m a very down to earth guy with realistic expectations not concerned with looks and more substance. I don’t care about money or educational background I more so care about who they are as a person and how they treat themselves and those around them. I’ve been told you can look at me or even talk to me and alarms go off that I’m gay. I don’t hide it but also don’t have confetti shooting out my ass lol . It’s so hard to find someone in this world it’s insane. It can literally drive you mad. To social media and influencer wannabe be thing has gotten old and boring. Probably would be one of my very few hard NO’s. Been there fine that no thanks. Anyways now I rambled toooo.

 

[Brodie888]

I'm not going to say finding love is easy. Keeping it going also takes work.

I think the biggest mistake people make is that they are always looking for what they can get out of a relationship rather than what they can give.

Secondly, if you keep doing the same thing and keep getting the same result, the problem is you. Change what you are doing or what criteria is a green light when it comes to men.

If you want a long term relationship, start asap and don't give up trying until it happens. Because it will get harder and harder the older you get because yes, all the good ones leave the scene and never come back. Thus the concentration of non-relationship suitable guys in your demographic gets more and more concentrated, which is why everyone you date as you get older seems to be an a$$hole or a loser or just not made to be in a relationship.

 

[Burghf_er]

yeah it’s definitely hard for relationships. When our community mostly seems to be filled with shallow people who lack emotional depth or sometimes any depth

Oh, I think that's true of every community. Why pick on the gay community?

 

[Burghf_er]

tldr: Your first mistake was settling in New York. Try a more rural area and you'll find more down-to-earth people instead of Tiktok types.

I agree that New York City presents particular challenges. But idealizing US rural areas is crap. I recently lived for three years in an all-white Midwestern town of about 5,500 people. Hardly anyone talked to me at all for the entire three years unless it was related to their job. (One next door neighbor never said more than "hello"--twice, I think--from 20 yards away.) There's a long list of reasons why LGBTQ young people and lots of other people are fleeing US small towns.

 

[IRINNN]

...40+ year old men are hotter than ever, but mentally, I find they are more 'behind' than ever too.

I feel exactly the same way about most of them too, and it is such a sad reality.

 

[lostinspace94]

I'm not going to say finding love is easy. Keeping it going also takes work.

I think the biggest mistake people make is that they are always looking for what they can get out of a relationship rather than what they can give.

Secondly, if you keep doing the same thing and keep getting the same result, the problem is you. Change what you are doing or what criteria is a green light when it comes to men.

If you want a long term relationship, start asap and don't give up trying until it happens. Because it will get harder and harder the older you get because yes, all the good ones leave the scene and never come back. Thus the concentration of non-relationship suitable guys in your demographic gets more and more concentrated, which is why everyone you date as you get older seems to be an a$$hole or a loser or just not made to be in a relationship.

Not sure this is true though. I know a number of people in relationships who a) are in toxic ones but don't have the balls to leave and/or don't know how b) completely are removed from the scene because they gave up / choose to remain single (not 'happily coupled') or c) get other life issues (parents death, health issues etc) so dating is not a priority so they are not in the market.

 

[lostinspace94]

I agree that New York City presents particular challenges. But idealizing US rural areas is crap. I recently lived for three years in an all-white Midwestern town of about 5,500 people. Hardly anyone talked to me at all for the entire three years unless it was related to their job. (One next door neighbor never said more than "hello"--twice, I think--from 20 yards away.) There's a long list of reasons why LGBTQ young people and lots of other people are fleeing US small towns.

Also I think places where there is 'one type of person' makes it even harder for someone who isn't that. In a place like NY its so mixed so finding someone a bit more open minded becomes easier.

 

[Jake1973]

Interesting thread.


The place where the people meet is different. They meet through the internet. And the internet is constructed in a way to make you addicted.

I watched a documentary about a young girl that did not know what she should wear and she was devastated about it and the psychiatrist just reduced the dresses in the wardrobe and suddenly she was happy again.

I think for mating this works the same way.

You have to much choice therefore you can either not decide like this little girl in the documentary or you increase your standard and that is usually through becoming more shallow.

There is a video about women, but I think that also applies to men. He shows a diagram how heterosexual and homosexual couples meet.

Also in the video fathers and mothers look less on the appearance of their childrens partner. But they also were less influenced through the internet. So the internet makes you more shallow, because you have more selection. And if you have more selection, you try for the more attractive first.

Yes I definitely think a lot of this is because of the internet/apps. You are buying people as if they are fast food, choosing based on highly curated photos and carefully scripted text. You are not hearing how they laugh, appreciating the expression on their face when pleasantly surprised, etc. You do not know how they will react when confronted with a challenge. You don't know what unresolved trauma informs their worldview. Looks/sex are important for attraction but they do not make a relationship last.

I don't know that the bar scene was that much better but at least you had the advantage of mutual friends, etc. Now it's a solo hunt and unsurprisingly feels isolating and lonely.

 

[Brodie888]

Not sure this is true though. I know a number of people in relationships who a) are in toxic ones but don't have the balls to leave and/or don't know how b) completely are removed from the scene because they gave up / choose to remain single (not 'happily coupled') or c) get other life issues (parents death, health issues etc) so dating is not a priority so they are not in the market.

I don't see how any point I posted is contradicted by any your scenarios.

Your three points are all things that do happen but do nothing in regards to changing the situation. If anything, it further supports my position because good people are removed from the pool, increasing the concentration of people who are not good at relationships.

 

[Vastian]

Just gonna insert my own experience and thoughts here.
For some background I'm 37. I did the whole party life and several bfs who lasted anywhere from 3 days to a couple years until I was 24. Then I met an old guy I really had a quick and affectionate connection with. We dated for 10 years thou I'll admit the last 3-4 years were less than amazing. Because of him I got to travel the world, the sex was great, the companionship after being together was nice and we were able to talk when life events happened. Though he couldn't keep it in his pants and I wasn't a saint either. At the time I felt it was revenge but looking back I was just making excuses. Towards the end we were still very close but it would only take a sneeze to start a fight. We broke up and he got a new bf. It wasn't a big deal or angry. We even still lived together at the time. After 10 years even if the romance is done the relationship still has its roots. Once covid hit I moved out to work due to it just being chaotic in the healthcare area.

It's been 4 maybe 5 years since all that. And we still chat and spend time together. He's older and does have good life advice.

After all that time we are kinda just friends who are sometimes grumpy with each other.


I realize this was a bit of a round about story but yes. I think it's still a good goal to find a partner. I do think working for one is not the way to go about it. But if you find a good one then you'll be good. And if it doesn't work out then you might still have a friend who understands you're crazy and vice versa.

Looking back at this...I had a good point...I don't think I explained well though.

 

[bravesoldier]

Four and a half year relationship ended when my BF who had not been to visit me at my place in nine months suddenly wanted to come visit me when a hot young guy was available near me.

I checked out not long after that and he never asked me one question about anything.

 

[lostinspace94]

Hmm. Whilst I want to be validating and sensitive , I also want to be honest.

@lostinspace94 has such a bleak view on relationships, its so sad.

Firstly, there are loads of generalisations in the OP that don't seem to be based on much but personal experience and anecdotal evidence.

There are also huge judgments in the post and I wonder if that attitude leaks into conversations w guys. For a group that are often shamed by their appearance or sexuality, one would ideally be extra cautious not to seem judgmental when looking for dates.

I think people often look for people in their "value" bracket. That said, I do suspect that some of egocentric self-sexualisation (autosexuality) with those types. If you are objectified within the scene it makes sense your whole self is wrapped up in looks and persona.

The fact is all relationships are hard work. When one lives like Peter Pan it is hard to settle when "better" may be around the corner. This is where I do suspect there is an issue in the gay population: there are few guardrails because men appear to be much less inhibited sexually than women and so there is often a lack of boundaries enforced.

In short, decades of shame about being gay perpetrated by the media and bullying in society has traumatised many gay men. Whilst it is getting better socially, the outsider status alone is enough to challenge even the most sane. Put two potentially traumatised men together w less inhibitions in a world that demands conformity, it's a recipe for misery. And I say this as someone who was in gay relationships for years..

Sorry I missed this.

I want to start by saying that I do indeed have a bleak view on relationships, not because I think relationships themselves are bad, but when I speak to people who are in them or have had them, it really makes me wonder. As I lack the personal experience, I rely on other people's testimonials, and over the years I've accumulated similar trends.

This is not to say *every* relationship is bad/doomed - I met several happy couples. What I noticed is they met years ago, or were in school etc together often, i.e. didn't meet through the current 'dating world' we face today. My thread was more about the world we are in now, sorry, I should have clarified this.

In terms of judgement and appearance, I would also say, generally, I think its become more extreme overall. For example, l bodybuilding used to be quite a niche sport. When I started in the gym only a few guys even were trying to add muscle. As I have gotten older, it seems like every other guy is on this path. Therefore the beauty standards have sky rocketed somewhat. Interestingly, I never actually based 'dating' on someones body, as I've always been more a "face" person. Therefore I've never been interested or attracted to "Instagram" types or even chase after them. I honestly thought I would come out, find a nice guy, be married and that would be it. Clearly I was wrong.

Indeed, all relationships are hard work, and I guess my post was trying to think for myself what kind of guy would I want to put the hard work into now (vs in my 20s). As time has gone by, and I've remained single, my "needs" have decreased because I'm basically taken care of myself, and it was more a self-analysis vs a criticism.

I think your last paragraph is spot on in terms of how I feel and better phrased than I think I articulated.

 

[lostinspace94]

My understanding and opinions also have their limitations, and of course they cannot represent the general situation in the world.

I don't think it's a gay issue. It's the same for gays and straights. The influence of socio-cultural environment and economic level is always taken into account.

Neither marriage nor love are necessary. Love has always been rare. The essence of marriage is to live together as partners, share risks, and improve one's ability to withstand risks.

People who have the ability to score 80 points will not be willing to stop at 60 points.
Good looks and good financial conditions are all advantages in choosing a mate. Good-looking people will look for equally good-looking people, or people with financial advantages. This is human nature.

Are heterosexuals better at relationships? Are there really so many happy couples? I don't think so. Heterosexuals may be more susceptible to traditional values. They need to marry and have children at the right time to meet society's expectations. When problems arise in a relationship, they are more likely to pretend that nothing is wrong in order to preserve their dignity.

Moreover, patriarchy’s oppression of women was even more severe in the past. Many women "have" to get married, rely on men, and keep a low profile to please men in order to avoid being abandoned by men. Today, women are treated slightly better. Most women can be financially independent without having to marry a man. Heterosexual marriage rates are also down (at least in my area). A high divorce rate is also a good thing. It shows that people are waking up and no longer pretending that everything is fine and living in painful marriages.

“White people are more depressed than other races” made me faint with laughter. I don't deny the suffering of white people, but I can only assume that white people see psychiatrists at the highest rates. After all, worrying about psychological problems is even a "privilege." People in backward areas cannot even afford to see a psychologist, let alone be included in a database as a reference and written into a paper.

People with good looks and strong personalities are more likely to go viral and attract attention online.
There must be a lot of gay people with average looks and down-to-earth personalities who just aren't "seen"

Someone mentioned why gay men have higher requirements for appearance, because in this patriarchal society, you men are used to being in a position of "scrutiny".
In your case as a gay person, you are both the censor and the censored.
Heterosexual men, on the other hand, don’t have to pay so much attention to appearance because they are not in a position to be “scrutinized”…

I agree with most of your post here.

The bits I remain conflicted on is the "having good looks + money = advantage of choosing a mate". I'm assuming I have the looks, and have money, but that doesn't mean others in the pool have both, and if they do, are willing to date. Infact, I would imagine they are less likely to want to date, as they are comfortable. The people I tend to see on the "market" are people without one or other or usually both because they "need" someone for one or more. That is why it becomes hard.

I also agree that people who fall into a "threshold" of looks will choose similar. The problem with this is it highly society driven e.g. a 6/10 in New York is probably a 8/10 in Chicago and probably a 9/10 in some European countries. Society also derives what is "hot" in the place you live in so you could literally have a higher score in one country and not the other. This also makes it hard because now people want the 10/10 from "each" place and are never satisfied.

The depression data was really interesting. I thought the same way, but the survey sample was across races, I will try and dig up a link. I agree that certain races may have more privilege to see a therapist, but I do think that "white privilege" can drive someone to really become more "soft" and depressed over time vs someone who has faced rejection/some level of oppression etc. I think this is particularly true for *aging* white folk, who struggle the most (again data based, not my own opinion) and probably drives this depression.

 

[lostinspace94]

I was in an esoteric site that concentrated on studies for some time. They always mentioned the Coolidge Effect. You are basically attracted to "newness" but that desire to newness is basically an addiction. You concentrate more on the look. Porn increases this Coolidge effect.

The Coolidge Effect

The rats in the experiment were pretty exausted after they slept with a lot of female rats. And depression is just buy definition a lack of energy. So you deplete your energy with this sex addiction. If you have only one female rat, the effect is less.

In my opinion, monogamy is the better form of a relationship, because of this effect. But a lot of people in the media somehow advertise the opposite.


Yes. You just need a person that thinks the same as you and also want to improve their character and you both have to fight the Coolidge effect.

I've always been happy with just 1 person tbh. I meditate and don't watch porn (just no interest) and am not super sexually active all the time. The problem is the culture means I almost *have* to jump from one guy to another because there is always a "problem" so my journey never ends. It really sucks.

 

[lostinspace94]

Well, it is possible the other hot guys like you are ALSO doing the same. Its just that their career path or ways of making money differ. They make money off their hot bodies, incentives to stay fit as a result and enjoying the experiences OF/escort/side gigs give them as well. They too realize everything is fleeting and a revolving door so they enjoy that life and experiences as they can. Basically, they are just doing the same as yourself, but the paths diverge.

I honestly wonder if you ever *actively* seeked out a "ugly" gay guy. A fat guy. No not UK fat. American Fat. Obese, belly jiggle, man boobs, and everything. Cause just as there are down to earth loving and caring fit guys, there are the same for fat guys but they are not desired. I remember you @lostinspace94 from your topic of the gay dating hierarchy. It's absolutely a thing amd us obese men are not seeked out unless its a fetish/kink. They like our fatness and basically thats it. But talking to and seeking out "unattractive" men is anathema to gay dating and human nature.

I take notice of how people describe when they are into "all types" and always see it framed as something similar to "skinny to muscular". E.g "Twinks to bodybuilders and everything in between" but what is between skinny and muscle? Fat is outside of that. Rarely ever do I read that people who claim to be into all types, and have no restrictions say, "I've dated some lovely very obese or fat men." Its almost like we are invisible.

just as @Kinglmao and @Lilyoftheghetto admitted, gay guys go through that phase. But that is THE dating phase. Notice both had to have "been there, done that" BEFORE possibly realizing the superficiality of it all. And so, other gay men, who havent gone through the same experiences to realize that same continue to perpetuate the hierarchy of natural human male nature, and the fit, attractive and sexy will always just have their fun hooking up with everyone but never actually dating.

I'm not meaning to shame or critique you guys for any of that. It's damn near universal. Its just that its very easy to see it all as someone from "outside" the desired group, outside the privileges looking in, and reflecting from my own experiences trying to interact with them.

Absolutely! But then some of those guys also may not have EVER had a relationship or hookup and now they are jaded, depressed and further removed from the "dating pool". If physically fit, hot sexy men get rejected or have difficulty, just try to imagine the life of a fat, ugly gay. You think they are on the apps? In the clubs? At the gay events with the hundreds of hard body abs muscle guy gays to "compete"? Sure maybe a handful, but on the whole? Fuck no lol. Even the "fat" part of gay community, the "bears" are slowly just becoming what used to be called "muscle bears". Just very muscled and built men with lots of bodyfat but not to the point of jiggle, hang, or boobs.

And obviously I understand that being in shape is better not just for attracting people but for overall personal health. But seriously, if you never have been fat, never been in such a situation of depression, never actively viewed life outside of the top of gay men and how things are portrayed in porn, social media, television and movies, then people don't think about the struggle others go through or have the ability to empathize with them.

Im not saying everyone should be dating fat people. Or that I am shaming people for not challenging natural human nature and instincts. But since we do have the ability to think, rationalize and empathize, maybe we should reflect a bit to understand why things are the way they are and how others may also be in a similar or much worse situation, portrayed by the simple fact that no one actually self-reflects, challenges themselves or emapthizes with others outside of their "group".

Sure, wasn't judging what they do, just saying they are not going to be "looking to settle down" even if the opportunity presents itself, so even if we cross paths (for a hookup) I'm not exactly what they want for more.

I'm not trying to be dismissive of your comments, but 2 of my closest friends (one is straight, one is gay) are "fat". I don't care because their friendship is solid and meaningful to me. Dating is tricker. I've literally had guys match with me, say 'they didn't they will match with me' and when I've tried to have a coffee with them, their self-esteem or something comes in the way, and they don't meet me. I have the same with other "types" e.g. shorter guys, skinner guys, guys who are not "conventially" attractive etc. I won't say I've tried 1000 times, but enough to be significant.

That said, I am always confused why people think "good looking" people have it easy. I'm literally an example of being unable to find someone to even date, yet I get hookups, etc. Also when you look through the apps, now a lot of guys are muscled, most are in the middle somewhere.

 

[ClaphamRob]

Mmm…

…where do I start with this…?

Maybe get off of the “dating apps” and do something real, that requires you to be present, doing an activity (outside of the gym) that stimulates the mind, moves the body and allows your personality to show through…

…or maybe it’s your personality that sucks in the first place?

I’m being facetious!

Don’t take this as an attack on your personality, but I will say this to ANYONE looking to connect with another human being - DONT USE DATING APPS!!

I’m in my 50’s now, and I’ve had countless housemates stay with me looking for “love” through Grindr/Scruff/gay Romeo etc etc etc.

When they moaned about not being able to find the right guy for the 100th time to me I just said “switch off the apps and do something you enjoy, that gets you out amongst other guys that you can share real time with. The rest will happen naturally.”

And it worked.

Everytime.

There ARE kind, compassionate, open, honest and loving men out there, you just need to look in the right places.