New Book Thinks Straight Men Who Fuck Men Are Not In Closet

[DiamondJoe]

I don't agree with every point you made lol but I overall agree on the prominence of bisexuality on past cultures.

I personally think most people are bisexual to some degree. It's a spectrum of course. And we have to take homophobia into account like you said. So that alone is going to skew things as well.

Prove any or all of this

 

[bigboaster]

Prove any or all of this

Sure.

A Brief History Of Bisexuality, From Ancient Greece and The Kinsey Scale To Lindsay Lohan

It's a good read

 

[DiamondJoe]

Sure.

A Brief History Of Bisexuality, From Ancient Greece and The Kinsey Scale To Lindsay Lohan

It's a good read

That's the title of a book - how have bisexuality had prominence in past cultures?*

How are "most people" bisexual to some degree?


* baring in mind that I'm an ancient historian by trade

 

[tjh1204]

I have a few straight sexual partners.

One is just really into butt stuff and thinks girls will judge him. So I work him over with toys while blowing him. We've never had penetrative sex except him fucking me with a strap on.

The other is a muscle guy that likes to top. When he's really horny he'll suck dick. But never kisses. And when he's come he leaves, so I often finish myself while he's dressing.

Both strike me as heterosexual. The difference I think is mainly kissing. Someone who wants to kiss is at least bi. No kissing and it's just bodies.

that’s such a myopic non evidentiary conclusion to come to. I would suggest a bit of self reflection to understand how your experiences may color your understanding of sexual identity.

Refraining from kissing is not a valid means of measuring someone’s sexual identity. There are men that refuse to accept a homosexual identity, even though they are homosexuals. I don’t have anal sex, for personal reasons. Does that mean I’m not a gay man? Ugh no!


If I convinced myself to be in a relationship with a woman, have vaginal sex with said woman, or even anal sex; would that make me heterosexual? Nope!

 

[tjh1204]

That's the title of a book - how have bisexuality had prominence in past cultures?*

How are "most people" bisexual to some degree?


* baring in mind that I'm an ancient historian by trade

Being an ancient historian doesn’t make you universally competent or correct. Surely, there are more renowned historians and archaeologists and even theologians that may support the perspectives offered.

If you’ve decided that those perspectives hold no merit, nothing has changed! You’re welcome to your perspective. As any researcher will tell you, correlation doesn’t prove causation. “Evidence” with the appropriate slant or manipulation can be used to say anything.

Hence the greatest struggle of this generation: deciding what’s factual. We each are on this online threads to discuss our differing perspectives. If you decided you’re right, why engage in discussion?

 

[bigboaster]

That's the title of a book - how have bisexuality had prominence in past cultures?

How are "most people" bisexual to some degree?

It's not just a title. It gives plenty of examples in the article bud.

As for the most people being bisexual comment. That's mostly opinion but it's nuanced. It's a spectrum. I think everyone is capable of some bisexual tendencies or attractions at some point. It varies based on environment and other unique conditions of course.

Not sure why you're so opposed to the idea. Aren't you for more bisexual representation and awareness?

Here is an article on a study on bisexuality in men. By no means does it confirm my claim point blank but it is still pretty informative. And it only further supports the existence of bisexuality regardless.

https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2020-07-20/study-sheds-light-on-male-bisexuality

 

[DiamondJoe]

Being an ancient historian doesn’t make you universally competent or correct. Surely, there are more renowned historians and archaeologists and even theologians that may support the perspectives offered.

If you’ve decided that those perspectives hold no merit, nothing has changed! You’re welcome to your perspective. As any researcher will tell you, correlation doesn’t prove causation. “Evidence” with the appropriate slant or manipulation can be used to say anything.

Hence the greatest struggle of this generation: deciding what’s factual. We each are on this online threads to discuss our differing perspectives. If you decided you’re right, why engage in discussion?

But my training does provide me with a range to tools, experience and knowledge

So no actual answer then other than saying I'm wrong...?

 

[DiamondJoe]

It's not just a title. It gives plenty of examples in the article bud.

As for the most people being bisexual comment. That's mostly opinion but it's nuanced. It's a spectrum. I think everyone is capable of some bisexual tendencies of attractions at some point. It varies based on environment and other unique conditions of course.

Not sure why you're so opposed to the idea. Aren't you for more bisexual representation and awareness?

Here is an article on a study on bisexuality in men. By no means does it confirm my claim but it is still pretty informative. And it only further supports the existence of bisexuality regardless.

https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2020-07-20/study-sheds-light-on-male-bisexuality

Neither of us is denying bisexuality but only one of us is saying that most people are bisexual...

The difficulty with the study - versus the ONS data - is that the study deals with the results of 4 previous studies of comparative sexuality in western universities.

While there may be some useful if limited data concerning a limited set of nice, young (mostly) white people from well-to-do backgrounds in progressive countries it is not the same as conducing a national survey (which is what the ONS is).

Studies of college kids give skewed results. Researchers know this.


I'm not against more people being bisexual, I'm against people making sloppy pronouncements about bisexual people without proper evidence.

 

[bigboaster]

I'm not against more people being bisexual, I'm against people making sloppy pronouncements about bisexual people without proper evidence.

Agreed and no source I've presented here has done anything of the sort. LOL.

I'm not saying anything to suggest traits or stereotypes of bisexual people. Just that's its a growing population and has historical precedent as well. That's all. Why you're fighting that is beyond me. But whatever. Wasn't looking for an argument.

 

[justahornyguy174]

I was once very naive about sexual orientation. I had strict definitions of what is and what isn’t gay. I now know for a fact that authentic heterosexual men can achieve sex with another man. If closeted gay men can fake having sex with wives, and producing kids with women, what fool believes it’s physically impossible for heterosexual men to do the opposite? We also know there are tons of heterosexual men who are attracted to the femininity of some Trans women but would NEVER let another identifying male touch him....These debates can get very contentious so I’ll just leave it at that for now.

I don't agree with this, how can you know for a fact an authentic heterosexual man can have sex with another man? The example of a closet gay man having sex, getting married, children etc doesn't stand up. There has been enormous social pressure on gay people to be straight and live a 'normal' life, hence why lots did get married etc. Of course it is not physically impossible for heterosexual men to do the opposite, but that would involve some kind of coercion (like a gay man getting married) so not really applicable.
It is all a scale, some people may be 100% straight, probably the majority aren't, perhaps they are interested in aspects of the same sex, like a hetrosexual man being interested in transsexual women, but that doesn't mean they want to have sex with a man.
I think people get too hung up on labeling themselves and others and if they transgress what they think that orientation should do then they can't belong to it.

 

[DiamondJoe]

Agreed and no source I've presented here has done anything of the sort. LOL.

I'm not saying anything to suggest traits or stereotypes of bisexual people. Just that's its a growing population and has historical precedent as well. That's all. Why yorie fighting that is beyond me. But whatever.

You posted a link to an article in an online magazine - it's not statistically valid nor intellectually rigorous, it's a brief historical survey and an opinion piece. Similarly, the study you cited has significant limitations.

As with much of this discussion it is projecting preconceptions onto bisexual people without proper evidence.

Find me some some real proof and we have a discussion

 

[bigboaster]

Neither of us is denying bisexuality but only one of us is saying that most people are bisexual...

In the sense that most people are not kinsey 0. I don't believe in sexuality being that rigid. Period. You don't have to agree. Lol I'm not saying it is hard fact. It's a reasonable conclusion in my view though. But that's mostly anecdotal

 

[DiamondJoe]

In the sense that most people are not kinsey 0. I don't believe in sexuality being that rigid. Period. You don't have to agree. Lol I'm not saying it is hard fact. It's a reasonable conclusion in my view though. But that's mostly anecdotal

Ah, Kinsey's so old hat...

Is the Kinsey Scale of Sexual Behavior Still Valid?

 

[bigboaster]

You posted a link to an article in an online magazine - it's not statistically valid nor intellectually rigorous, it's a brief historical survey and an opinion piece. Similarly, the study you cited has significant limitations.

As with much of this discussion it is projecting preconceptions onto bisexual people without proper evidence.

Find me some some real proof and we have a discussion

You didn't have contradictory evidence to the Gallup post I linked. You can't just dismiss information you don't like. That's not how it works.

I provided a study that was a meta analysis of previous studies. Again you did not provide refutation other than your own opinion. So again that's not a win for you my friend. Lol please falsify the stats I sent before you dismiss it.

 

[bigboaster]

Ah, Kinsey's so old hat...

Is the Kinsey Scale of Sexual Behavior Still Valid?

Fine is the Klein grid more to your liking then?

The Klein Grid — AIB

 

[tjh1204]

But my training does provide me with a range to tools, experience and knowledge

So no actual answer then other than saying I'm wrong...?

No one said you were wrong. It seems like your primed and ready for. Conflict that you aren’t going to find. It’s interesting that you’re an academic yet you seemed to lack the ability to read what I wrote critically!

So, let me try it again. Your perspective doesn’t supersede the perspectives of others here, even if you’re a bonafide historian. Other historians can surely offer commentary to refute or support what I and others have offered here today.

What I don’t understand is if you’re so learned and the perspectives given here are baseless, why entertain us at all? You certainly aren’t going to change anyone’s mind. Throwing out an unverifiable credential isn’t going to be sufficient to move the needle.

Even if it’s verified, your a single person, who likely aren’t a leader in your field. The way I see it, you can engage in a dialogue as a peer, or say nothing at all, or play the high and mighty card. The latter will prove fruitless. But hey, you do you.

 

[tjh1204]

You posted a link to an article in an online magazine - it's not statistically valid nor intellectually rigorous, it's a brief historical survey and an opinion piece. Similarly, the study you cited has significant limitations.

As with much of this discussion it is projecting preconceptions onto bisexual people without proper evidence.

Find me some some real proof and we have a discussion

Whether the preconceptions are factual are not, it’s still the status quo. You asked for context and I provided you with context as to why there’s hostility toward bisexual people. The hostility comes from experiences that are valid. You taking offense and waving a bi flag isn’t going to change other people’s perceptions. Out gay men who’ve been in the trenches of an equal rights movement, will have problems with bisexual men and MSM forever.

Unless these men begin to take some of the consequences of being out and proud on the same scales, the resentment won’t change. It is what it is. There will be no rousing support or welcome. It’s made even more unlikely when articles like the OP are the norm. The masses make excuses for and explain away cig gendered white men having their cake (man sex) and eating it too (presenting as heterosexual societally).

 

[DiamondJoe]

You didn't have contradictory evidence to the Gallup post I linked. You can't just dismiss information you don't like. That's not how it works.

I provided a study that was a meta analysis of previous studies. Again you did not provide refutation other than your own opinion. So again that's not a win for you my friend. Lol please falsify the stats I sent before you dismiss it.

So again, no answer to my issues with either of the studies?

This isn't some dumb-ass point scoring competition - where this started was I made a number of assertions about bisexuality, my sexuality and the way it is viewed and mistreated, the vast majority of which you have not challenged.

Re: this particular point that "bisexuals are a tiny minority". I have shown that most recent UK-wide stats give the proportion of self-densified bisexual people as 0.9%. That comfortably fits my definition.

Moving on to the Gallup poll. We're still arguing over single percentage points. The US rate on increase in LGBT individuals is an extra 1% in 3 years to 5.6% in 2020, of which slightly over half now identify as bisexual. Nationally, that equates to around 3%, which still sounds like a tiny minority. This gives us a range of between 0.9-3% of self-identified people in two "progressive", predominantly white countries.

Much of what has been written in this thread perpetuates prejudice against bisexuals; all the guff about bi privilege, having your cake and eating it and pretty much all of the cited evidence. It is lazy and it is outdated.

It does not stand up.

 

[DiamondJoe]

Whether the preconceptions are factual are not, it’s still the status quo. You asked for context and I provided you with context as to why there’s hostility toward bisexual people. The hostility comes from experiences that are valid. You taking offense and waving a bi flag isn’t going to change other people’s perceptions. Out gay men who’ve been in the trenches of an equal rights movement, will have problems with bisexual men and MSM forever.

Unless these men begin to take some of the consequences of being out and proud on the same scales, the resentment won’t change. It is what it is. There will be no rousing support or welcome. It’s made even more unlikely when articles like the OP are the norm. The masses make excuses for and explain away cig gendered white men having their cake (man sex) and eating it too (presenting as heterosexual societally).

But that's entirely the point! People might have a preconception of some big beardy white guy sitting in a big blue heaven on a big gold throne - doesn't mean it's true or that their lazy views shouldn't be challenged.

Regarding bisexual men: I have also provided counter evidence that being bi is not an easy ride; mental and physical health outcomes, finance and general life prospects for bisexuals are worse than those of gay men and lesbians. The bi privilege you cite is another word for gay prejudice.

The resentment is as illusory as it is mistaken.

 

[njersey]

The other man's grass is always greener...

Ok, so one bisexual man treats you badly and that means all are shites? Isn't it a somewhat lazy preconception about bi guys to say they're all the same? Have all gay men treated you well in your life..?

I'm not getting annoyed with you, promise, but this is important. It pisses me off when people do not believe my own claim of self-knowledge, insisting they know me better than I do.

Bisexual people are a very small, misunderstood minority. It can be highly isolating, with shame and identity uncertainty stemming from cultural norms often displaying through negative stereotypes like hypersexuality or infidelity. People fetishise bisexuality - a very common male fantasy for bi women, which is seen as desirable in a way that male bisexuality isn't. Again, it's lazy and it's dismissive.

I'm not sure "bisexual privilege" holds water either. Bisexual privilege is the idea that bisexual people have the option to avoid the stigma associated with same sex attraction by ignoring it and pursuing fulfilling relationships with the opposite sex. Research shows bisexual people face higher rates of suicide, illness and poverty than lesbian, gay, and straight people, and a lower allocation of resources within the LGBT community to address these issues. The issue is not “bisexual privilege,” but rather, my experience of being granted the straight privilege.

From my POV, I and my sexuality have been extensively denied and derided throughout my life, mostly by gay men. As I say, some will give the "bi now, gay later" line. Plenty of others have told me that I am disgusting and/or dangerous for my sexuality. If I am lucky, I am put in the "unicorn" category, which also pisses me off.


Being bi is not an "easy option". Walking down the middle of the road means dodging traffic from both directions.



Of course, underlying this discussion on both sides is a fuck-ton of toxic masculinity...

Sorry if I was misunderstood. I have a tendency to give conclusions and information without explaining why it’s relevant or how it’s qualified.

You’ll notice I said “perception” quite a bit. lol. These aren’t objective truths but beliefs. Theories about how the world works.

We all live in our own realities formed by our senses and our experiences. I don’t know you better than you do. I do have some insight into how gay men grow up, how they experience the world, and how isolating it can be.

I didn’t present the idea of bisexual privilege as a fact. It may or may not exist. But that’s not the salient point. The point is that misapprehension and misunderstanding feed into how we treat each other.

Just like a gay man can’t experience being a bisexual man, the reverse is also true.

My entire thesis here is that we all have to lead with the assumption that we don’t understand each other and have dialogue.

There’s sort of an anthropic principle at work here. Our own respective communities seem welcoming because we were, to an extent, formed within them. They grow around us; they don’t swallow us, if that makes sense.

Gay men, in particular, seem unwelcoming because all communities are unwelcoming until you speak their language.

My first comment was just what I think are the driving factors in the gay male perception of bisexuality. I assumed that we’re operating on the same understanding of the difference between reality and human psychology.

Another misapprehension. lol

Just a side note: you can’t effectively say that your self-knowledge is definitive and then deny my own experience and self-knowledge. I mean, you can, but it’s self defeating. Also, I believe the phrase I used was “shit ton” and not “one.” lol