Why are they trying to force sexual fluidity onto gay men

[Beegun84]

As someone who has experienced fluidity but also has issues with the low-key homo shaming I see being promoted nowadays… this is a complicated topic.

First, one of the big problems is the hypocrisy and double standards that are present in media. Gays get shamed for obsessing over “straight guys” (and sometimes rightfully so), but there’s still a ton of cache in having some proximity to heterosexuality. While in entertainment we see a good amount of “gays” experimenting but we see very little of that from “straight” male characters in entertainment outside of pornography or turning tricks. There’s implicit male homo-shaming in that double standard. While a lot of filmmakers stay looking for “straight presenting”/straight-ish actors for queer roles. They deny it, but they purposely look for those dudes to cast. While a lot of queers covertly hate “gays” and resent homosexuality because of their own traumas or insecurities or questioning. They don’t want to be real about that, but that resentment is prominent as hell, especially in the entertainment industry. We still don’t see enough male-male homo romanticism or commitment in entertainment. So much are still basic “coming out” stories or being in a hetero relationship but discovering you’re into dudes or sex-focused stories. A lot of queers in the entertainment industry have a lot of issues with “gay”, their sexuality, their traumas, their insecurities. And it reflects a lot of the entertainment we see and a lot of casting.

I will say that only in the 90s did people become obsessed with “gay” having to mean being entirely inherently homosexual your whole life. And let’s be real, a lot of homosexuals aren’t even that genuinely into their sex beyond sex. So, we should be celebrating guys who are bisexual/pan sexual/experiences degrees of fluidity but have no shame towards homosexuality, homo-romanticism, homo-commitment and towards “gay”. We do need to accept just how varied sexuality is, how individual many people’s sexual journeys are, the traumas and struggles people go through, and the nature of the gender, sexual, affection, romantic, emotion, commitment spectrum. My biggest issue is that some folks are pretending as if we now live in a world free of homophobia, that internalized phobias don’t exist, hetero pressures, homo shame, queer insecurities, masculine fragilities. Those things are still big issues no matter a man’s identities or lifestyle or dimensions. You cannot try to talk about or promote fluidity without also delving into those things earnestly. We also need to accept that, yes, a lot of queers experience fluidity and contradictions, but there is no shame in being inherently homosexual your whole life and/or wanting to live an entirely homo lifestyle. Some queers are acting as if that’s a problem.

Thank you for this and you're right.

Old, prominent Hollywood directors never even had 2 males touching for a few seconds on their movies in all of their long career, unlike say James Gunn in GoTG 2. They may donate some coins to LGBT causes but most likely repulsed if they see any form of PDAs between 2 men. Talent agents may publicly supports gay rights but privately advises their clients not to come out. Blue-hair twitter/woke influencers (under their handlers) publicly support all of the fan-made queer ships but actively working against all LGBT projects so they all fail.

But I hope Hillary Clinton is right when she said it's a generational thing but things aren't looking good at the moment.

 

[James Blond]

I see fluidity evolving in a lot of angles in society, it's something that comes with realizing that we have intersectional identities (and struggles).

I see it as moving along from old binaries (like gay bi straight), and into something a bit less declared as an identity that people have to align themselves with (I've personally always detested tribal identity-fascism, especially from gay men who, of all people ought to know better). I think the world in general is moving toward something that is a lot less fixed and these tensions are the growing pains that come with that.

The second thing you're touching on however is Media Representation, and I see what you're saying and agree that there could certainly some sort of tension going on there. But to flip the coin this is nothing new. Look at Will and Grace for example. That was not queer TV. That was straight people-TV that used gay stereotypes to attract (and make the content palatable) to straight people.

Identity paradigms and media representation have ALWAYS been divergent, even though media often is mistaken for what is going on in society (hence why propaganda is effective), so I think that it's important for the sake of this discussion to make the distinction and let us know which of two things that you might be asking about?

It always cracks me up how people use the word "intersectional" to denote that we people have many things in common beyond just the one in question, but they never realize that by using this word, they are actually cloistering themselves into the exclusive handful of crit-litters who are the only ones who use it. So this supposedly egalitarian idea of "intersectionality" ends up denoting nothing but condescension and elitism.

 

[James Blond]

Imagine what us asexuals in homoromantic marriage has to deal with. I'm married to a man because I love him and not because of any perceived sexual attraction.

Also, gay for pay? Are we going to hate on those porn stars? There are people who say because someone is bi or pan that they can't decide - much of it from gay men. Bi/pan obviously aren't necessarily promiscuous. Who cares if they are?

It's always a good idea to be open minded about that which you do not understand. Regardless of what happens in consensual porn, regardless.of.how disgusting it is to you, it's their life/lives. It does not or should not affect you. If a gay man fucking pussy disturbs you, turn off the porn. If an asexual experiencing sex for the first time makes you confused, oh well. If a bi hung guy getting railed by a small dicked stud makes your head spin, you might need to figure out why.

It seems a little strange to read that you are a highly sensitive person with a highly specific identity while you are faulting the OP for being highly sensitive and having a too-narrow identity. Maybe both viewpoints are valid?

 

[James Blond]

I agree we have to be open and accepting towards all sorts of sexuality. However until the day we all have the same equal rights and we are all free from pressure to conform to what someone else says is normal, until that day, all the straight allies, and bi/pan, and in porn G4P currently in opposite sex relationships need to shout their solidarity and vote the right way every time!!!

I’m not going to talk about gender because I am a cis gay male

yes, and a cis gay male you are no longer allowed to talk about gender or sexuality so please go stand in the corner.

 

[James Blond]

I'm stumped by this post/thread as I don't see how your thoughts expressed here are different from how many straight folks feel about gay sex.

I don't understand why others concern themselves with other folks' sex lives.

Unless it directly affects them.

And I see no evidence of that here.

I don't care who other folks are sleeping with.

Regardless of how these people choose to identify.

If someone floats your boat, take the cruise, lol.

Sooooo, because you yourself do not see evidence of what the OP says, and because you say you yourself don't care who other people sleep with, you're likening his very specific complaint about feeling that his hard-won right to his idea of sexuality is being eroded is just the same as how straight people — who have for thousands of years held all the cards in terms of what is "correct" sexuality — must feel about conceding a sliver of their dominance to others? Well if that is true and these things are equal, then we should all sit down and listen to how straight people feel about every single tiny aspect of non-hetero-normal sexuality. If not, you are actually just reinforcing what he is complaining about — that gay men should just be lumped in with straight people in terms of being able to claim any sensitivity when it comes to their sexuality. In which case, the evidence you couldn't see is right in front of you — lucky you!

 

[MisterB]

Sooooo, because you yourself do not see evidence of what the OP says, and because you say you yourself don't care who other people sleep with, you're likening his very specific complaint about feeling that his hard-won right to his idea of sexuality is being eroded is just the same as how straight people — who have for thousands of years held all the cards in terms of what is "correct" sexuality — must feel about conceding a sliver of their dominance to others? Well if that is true and these things are equal, then we should all sit down and listen to how straight people feel about every single tiny aspect of non-hetero-normal sexuality. If not, you are actually just reinforcing what he is complaining about — that gay men should just be lumped in with straight people in terms of being able to claim any sensitivity when it comes to their sexuality. In which case, the evidence you couldn't see is right in front of you — lucky you!

I don't share the same life experiences as the OP describes.

Hence my comments.

 

[nhguy78]

It seems a little strange to read that you are a highly sensitive person with a highly specific identity while you are faulting the OP for being highly sensitive and having a too-narrow identity. Maybe both viewpoints are valid?

I'm not faulting him for being sensitive. He's asking a question and wondering what's going on. It's understandable and common to encounter an identity or practice that which one does not understand. Learning from those people can help immensely.

 

[James Blond]

I don't share the same life experiences as the OP describes.

Hence my comments.

That was much more clear and much less judgmental.

 

[James Blond]

I'm not faulting him for being sensitive. He's asking a question and wondering what's going on. It's understandable and common to encounter an identity or practice that which one does not understand. Learning from those people can help immensely.

Learning can occur even through people you already assume you know everything about.

 

[MisterB]

That was much more clear and much less judgmental.

That is you reading into what I wrote and making assumptions. Being judgmental.

Cuz it seems that several other LPSG Members understood what I was saying...

 

[art10]

Responding only to OP, I haven't really read the rest of the thread:

It's just typical misandry and homophobia. You gotta realize that a lot of these people, especially the queer ones, have their own host of social and psychological issues, and have resentment toward people who "won't accept them how they are" (won't put up with their childish immaturity and want them to grow up and get better). So they try to force things on people, to get what they want.

They don't respect boundaries because respecting boundaries would mean accepting that they people they want, don't wanna be with them. It's basic level victimization stuff, harassment, violation, abusiveness, etc. Some parts of the LGBTQ have tried to normalize this behavior which is sick, but it'll never get anywhere. Most people respect themselves and reject those who don't respect them.

Just be as gay as you are and remember no one you're not interested in can ever have you. They'll hate you even more for it, but you'll be true to yourself. Let them have their reaction and crazy accusations if that's all they've got going for them. You don't need to fall for their disrespect and abuse.

 

[jtforeverlove]

It's confusing cause if you don't agree with others you are told you can't label them they can love who they want

Great but i'm a gay man i will not sleep with a trans man or woman ever in my life, i'm a bottom of course i find females pretty and stuff but not to where i'm imagining to fuck them

so when i see a G4P actor and finding out they are married or have a Gf i can not be turned on by them even if they are fucking another guy or being fucked by a gay cause my head goes to 'oh wait you actually fuck women' and it's not going to turn me on so watching porn the past few yrs with all these things coming out and these new words and 'labels' it's hard to find anything i have to pretty much find amateur porn to get myself off

i feel like the Gay porn stars who were identified as Gay suddenly slept with a trans men and they are identified as fluid all of a sudden, and no i don't believe you can suddenly be gay and then be fluid just like you don't suddenly become Gay you are born Gay.

i don't hate anyone be who you want to be love who you want to love no judgement just like i have mentioned i am Gay and gay men attract me and no i wouldn't date a Trans Woman, i don't want no lady parts near me

i do believe that these openly gay men are sleeping with women/trans men is like this phrase thing going on, your gay it's weird to be attracted to the opposite sex and i'm talking about openly gay not bi people (that's another topic)

i'm tired of people mostly guys saying don't label cause funny thing is we have been fighting for the labels now your telling me do not

I'm Gay it's my Label i like men who are also gay and only like guy parts

 

[art10]

I'm Gay it's my Label i like men who are also gay and only like guy parts

I feel you and you've also summed up a lot of my sentiments. Gay is gay, period. It is not compatible with female-anyone. The people who take this word and make it apply to things it doesn't, are hijacking it and co-opting it and basically appropriating it. Funny how appropriation is so bad when it comes to Native people but so okay when it comes to sexuality.

Gay men have sex only with men who were born as men, period. It's fine if once-gay men discover they're more bisexual or whatever, but that's not what gay is. This word deserves to be honored, because it applies to us gay guys who are 100% gay and zero "fluid."

Also, I don't see "fluidity" as existing. There is a spectrum, and people land on a certain range or part of it. Some land on both female and male parts of it, some only on the male side, etc. Some people may discover that their range is wider than they once admitted, but this is not becoming "fluid", this is becoming self-honest.

Personally, I'm glad to be gay and will never be "fluid" for any female person nor for a guy lacking guy genitals.

 

[jtforeverlove]

I feel you and you've also summed up a lot of my sentiments. Gay is gay, period. It is not compatible with female-anyone. The people who take this word and make it apply to things it doesn't, are hijacking it and co-opting it and basically appropriating it. Funny how appropriation is so bad when it comes to Native people but so okay when it comes to sexuality.

Gay men have sex only with men who were born as men, period. It's fine if once-gay men discover they're more bisexual or whatever, but that's not what gay is. This word deserves to be honored, because it applies to us gay guys who are 100% gay and zero "fluid."

Also, I don't see "fluidity" as existing. There is a spectrum, and people land on a certain range or part of it. Some land on both female and male parts of it, some only on the male side, etc. Some people may discover that their range is wider than they once admitted, but this is not becoming "fluid", this is becoming self-honest.

Personally, I'm glad to be gay and will never be "fluid" for any female person nor for a guy lacking guy genitals.

wow someone responded and not be negative to me.

completely agree, but like i think Dante Colle the porn actor is hot, but then he suddenly identifies himself as fluid then says he fucks whoever he wants, and it's like well you lost my watching.

and i know there is difference between a straight actor playing a gay character or gay playing straight usually in the show or movie they don't really do anything x-rated (even if they do they are either wearing a fake penis, or it's covered by their bush or its soft as hell)

i'm talking about the porn actors, so many of them now on their onlyfans or whatever are now sleeping with trans men and women and it's like thought you were gay, your married to a man so it doesn't turn me on

i don't care if they are 'actors' they are fucking you see them with hardons etc etc it's different because they fuck the same sex but then go home to their gf or wife like come on way to ruin my sexual fantasy

 

[dreambridger]

Responding only to OP, I haven't really read the rest of the thread:

It's just typical misandry and homophobia. You gotta realize that a lot of these people, especially the queer ones, have their own host of social and psychological issues, and have resentment toward people who "won't accept them how they are" (won't put up with their childish immaturity and want them to grow up and get better). So they try to force things on people, to get what they want.

They don't respect boundaries because respecting boundaries would mean accepting that they people they want, don't wanna be with them. It's basic level victimization stuff, harassment, violation, abusiveness, etc. Some parts of the LGBTQ have tried to normalize this behavior which is sick, but it'll never get anywhere. Most people respect themselves and reject those who don't respect them.

Just be as gay as you are and remember no one you're not interested in can ever have you. They'll hate you even more for it, but you'll be true to yourself. Let them have their reaction and crazy accusations if that's all they've got going for them. You don't need to fall for their disrespect and abuse.

great post, and I think "misandry" is the key word. In the past decade, third wave feminism has taken over the public image of the LGBTQ, and since third wave feminism is based in misandry and a revenge attitude more than actually being about women's rights, it must be very embarrassing and problematic that men who exclusively love men (which i imagine would be the most disgusting kind of creature to a misandrist) are a big part of that community .

 

[Dogg69]

This is something I keep hearing and I really don't understand it and have never observed it. When were gay men ever the "golden boy"? has it occurred to anyone that maybe the reason gay men are upset about fluidity agendas is because they keep hearing this condescending sentiment and it's totally untrue to anyone's experience? @nhguy78 had said something similar about gay men feeling "overshadowed". Do you guys really think that the grievances some gay men are sharing about this come from jealousy over the limelight in the great social oppression showcase extravaganza? I mean, does anyone even *like* that kind of attention; how could you accuse anyone of wanting that?

Well, speaking for myself, I don't want that kind of attention, I just want to live my life, which is what most of us want whether gay or bi or trans. Most of us don't want to be in the crossfire of a culture war (much less used as pawns). So I'm getting a little annoyed being told my opinions about gender politics have anything to do with wanting some kind of cultural attention back, because I never remember having that attention in the first place, and I never asked for it anyway. It's a great way to write off what anyone has to say about this and it's completely unfounded.

Spot on! Thankyou

 

[jaybee0560]

Also, I don't see "fluidity" as existing. There is a spectrum, and people land on a certain range or part of it. Some land on both female and male parts of it, some only on the male side, etc. Some people may discover that their range is wider than they once admitted, but this is not becoming "fluid", this is becoming self-honest.

Personally, I'm glad to be gay and will never be "fluid" for any female person nor for a guy lacking guy genitals.

You're gonna have to explain what you mean when you say "you don't see fluidity" as existing.
I consider myself more fluid than bisexual - there is obvious cross over but - to me this means my attraction to men or women changes all the time. Sometimes I have zero interest in Men and am all about women - sometimes the opposite is true and most of the time I'll scale between the two - that's fluid and it exists right?
While there are absolutely gay and straight presentations of sexuality - and bi to varying degrees - there are also people who at different point feel differently about their wants. Acknowledging this or even, including this by way of representation isn't an agenda - its just making the point that people come in different flavours.
I get that this could be leveraged by people who think that cos there are some sexually fluid people then sexuality is something that can be modified - but those people are missing the point.
Even saying you are sexually fluid doesn't mean there's a path to being totally straight - that's not how any of this works.

 

[Smallteaplant]

You're gonna have to explain what you mean when you say "you don't see fluidity" as existing.
I consider myself more fluid than bisexual - there is obvious cross over but - to me this means my attraction to men or women changes all the time. Sometimes I have zero interest in Men and am all about women - sometimes the opposite is true and most of the time I'll scale between the two - that's fluid and it exists right?
While there are absolutely gay and straight presentations of sexuality - and bi to varying degrees - there are also people who at different point feel differently about their wants. Acknowledging this or even, including this by way of representation isn't an agenda - its just making the point that people come in different flavours.
I get that this could be leveraged by people who think that cos there are some sexually fluid people then sexuality is something that can be modified - but those people are missing the point.
Even saying you are sexually fluid doesn't mean there's a path to being totally straight - that's not how any of this works.

the thing is that it undermines gay rights. The thing is that we don’t live in a post gay world. I don’t want to say that it’s bad thing. Sexuality is a void that impossible to explain. Do you really want to go back to the point where anyone who engages in homosexuality is thought deviant?

 

[jaybee0560]

the thing is that it undermines gay rights. The thing is that we don’t live in a post gay world. I don’t want to say that it’s bad thing. Sexuality is a void that impossible to explain. Do you really want to go back to the point where anyone who engages in homosexuality is thought deviant?

How exactly does representing some people with sexual fluidity undermine gay rights?..

if anything, it can only work to expand on them given gay rights overlaps with all sorts of queer presentations of sexuality.

I have no idea what you mean by a "Post gay world"..

I also have no idea how recognising that sexuality is neither always static - nor broken into the Gay/Straight binary ..or even Gay/Straight/bi - means I "really want to go back to the point where anyone who engages in homosexuality is thought deviant"

It's also worth noting that the post I was responding to literally made the claim that fluidity doesn't exist.. As someone who is pretty sexually fluid - I have a bit of an issue with people gatekeeping human sexuality based on their own personal experience.

 

[Smallteaplant]

How exactly does representing some people with sexual fluidity undermine gay rights?..

if anything, it can only work to expand on them given gay rights overlaps with all sorts of queer presentations of sexuality.

I have no idea what you mean by a "Post gay world"..

I also have no idea how recognising that sexuality is neither always static - nor broken into the Gay/Straight binary ..or even Gay/Straight/bi - means I "really want to go back to the point where anyone who engages in homosexuality is thought deviant"

It's also worth noting that the post I was responding to literally made the claim that fluidity doesn't exist.. As someone who is pretty sexually fluid - I have a bit of an issue with people gatekeeping human sexuality based on their own personal experience.

Postgay- a society where homosexuality is accepted as the norm without the cost to one's social standing. Basically, doesn't exist.

Sexual Fluidity does exist. I am not denying that. My point is that queerness and gay rights are probably incompatible. Gay rights was based on the argument that gayness was like race. Biologically determined and immutable. One of the major reasons why people don't want homosexuals around children is because they believe that homosexuality is a social contagion. Queerness argues that heterosexuality and homosexuality are essential in nature and that it's sexual constructed in nature. So you're basically arguing that homosexuality could be caught. The conservatives and Christians would love an argument like that.

I feel that gay rights is about upholding and integrating into the social order. While queerness is about breaking and undermining the social order.

You do know what the Europeans, specifically North Europeans, used forms of sexuality that outside of monogamous-heterosexual norms to justify colonizing the world. However, most societies have some form of sexual taboos and sexual restraint. And in most cultures that had up homosexuality, passive homosexuality was looked down upon. Outcast at worst, jester at best.

To me, it's about protecting gay rights even if comes at the expense of throwing other queers under the bus.