Old Masculinity and male bonding

[Slickitup]

Moving forward, what I do find funny today (but very sad, actually) are the myriad of snarky comments I see on this site (and elsewhere) with regards to the "Old Trolls" at the gym who sit around naked talking after a workout/shower at the gym, while the younger guys complaining about it do the Towel Dance. These younger men really seem to think that these are all old gay men just sitting around waiting to ogle them as they dress---and they couldn't be further from the truth. Most of these "old" guys were just used to the nudity and banter of their younger days...and are trying to recreate it in their own way. They're still very comfortable with it...

Yep, those of us who are a certain age don't really give it a thought. And the younger guys who work so hard to hide everything only end up drawing attention to themselves. Not to mention how gross it seems to do the towel dance hiding your sweaty bits, then using that same towel post-shower to dry yourself.

Another thing that I think has changed is that it's only been a couple of decades now that everyone had 24/7 access to porn. Given that most porn actors are endowed with bodies and cocks that don't exactly land in the middle of average, it skews our perception of what's normal and contributes to the intimidation most of us feel about being less than....

 

[swimmerguydfw]

Yep, those of us who are a certain age don't really give it a thought. And the younger guys who work so hard to hide everything only end up drawing attention to themselves. Not to mention how gross it seems to do the towel dance hiding your sweaty bits, then using that same towel post-shower to dry yourself.

Another thing that I think has changed is that it's only been a couple of decades now that everyone had 24/7 access to porn. Given that most porn actors are endowed with bodies and cocks that don't exactly land in the middle of average, it skews our perception of what's normal and contributes to the intimidation most of us feel about being less than....

I agree...the whole Towel Dance just seems so counter-productive, and a complete waste of time.

As to the porn...the sad thing about that as well is that much of it is all so false. Most men with real lives don't have the time to spend at the gym to look the way porn actors do. And then too, most porn actors aren't really as hung as we're led to believe. I knew people in that industry...and the tricks that are employed to make guys look much more hung than they are are numerous.

 

[swimmerguydfw]

That's not surprising. Different cultures across the world and through history have had very different conceptions of sexuality. The idea of sexual orientation as a fixed aspect of a person is fairly unusual and very recent. More common was the idea that sex is a thing you do, and many cultures only considered it shameful or not appropriately masculine to be the receptive partner - classical Rome and Greece were particularly judgemental about this - but non-receptive parties in homosexual intercourse were fine. Cultures with third genders complicate things further, since there's now a whole bunch of people that we in the modern West would want to categorise as either trans or gay, but would not and often still do not consider themselves so.

Yes...and it seems sad that now that we want to "categorize" things---thus shining a light on them (for good or bad)---it has put a focus on certain aspects of sexuality that were not really all that remarked on in the past. These activities have been there since the beginning of time, if under the surface...and tolerated to varying level of degrees.

 

[Janvier75]

Well, I can't speak for everyone's deep personal feelings as to how they physically "measured up" with the guys around them back then...but by and large, most guys just didn't have an issue with it. Sculpted bodies and big biceps weren't the markers of "maleness" (gay or straight) the way they are today...nor was a huge dick. Now I can't say if this was because the whole issue was already normalized by the nudity...or if it was just because those sorts of attributes just weren't considered as important to a man's character as they are today. Back then, I just wasn't that tuned into the possible psychological ramifications because group nudity was just such a fact of life. But looking back now, that would be an interesting question to know the answer to...

However, I do think that being surrounded by nudity makes you far more aware of the basic "average-ness" of most males. And then, that changes the dynamic immensely. Yes, there were a few guys with great bodies---mostly the guys on some of the sports teams who of necessity had to work out on a regular basis. And while they occasionally received positive comments on some aspect of their build, it was more in the spirit of the guys knowing the extra effort it took to look like that for your sport (and not for your girlfriend, or for Tik-Tok) rather than being driven by any sort of envy, or feelings of "inadequacy" in oneself.

I will say, however, that also back then there wasn't the issue of American men/boys being overweight that there is today---almost all guys had the typical slimmer male body of those time periods, so body-shaming in the current sense hadn't even been thought of. And sure...some guys took more ribbing than others about other body features. I was short...and had a more-than-average amount of body hair...so I came in for my share of it myself. But I knew that it was all in fun...and I gave as good as I got.

Same with dicks. Once you see that MOST guys are just as "big" or "small" as you are, it changes the dynamic. There are really very few monsters out there (although that does seem to be changing, if LPSG is any indication). And in an open shower situation, everyone sees that all the rest of the guys have the same issues that you do with shrivel---and then semis---around warm/cold air and water. The few odd guys who really did have the big equipment were sometimes teased about it. But again, it was usually just in the spirit of guys being guys, and not out of any feeling of envy (well, maybe just a little bit !) or inadequacy.

And because of that, the level of comfort with it was different than today. My first college dorm---back in the days of the all-male/all-female dorm---was one of the older ones at the school (which at one point had had a military background), and there was still a holdover "barracks" gestalt to much of the older designs. The single shower room/toilets for the whole floor was down at the end of the hall...and it wasn't unusual at all for guys to walk back and forth to the showers from their dorm room naked, with their towel over their shoulders and not around their waist (this was before women were allowed in the dorms). And, what with all the steam in the shower room itself, most guys shaved naked as well...and then dried themselves in the hall where it was dry and cooler. In any case, you got used to being naked pretty quickly...if only out of convenience and comfort.

And, of course, there was always a LOT of banter going on...

As to the fear of homosexuality...I don't remember any of that at all. But then, the times were different---gay men weren't "out" then, and of necessity made an effort to fit in with the larger male ethos (whether they liked it or not, I guess). They were pretty much invisible...and hence, perhaps, not a threat. And I am sure that there were gay guys on the floor---with that many guys, the averages were just there. But, as I've said earlier, the religious aspect of homophobia that we have today wasn't there (and this was a college in the Deep South, no less)...so there really was no overt fear along that particular frame from the straight males. Now, I do know...(and I know that I'm going to get slammed for saying this)...that there was a certain amount of male/male activity going on behind the scenes. It wasn't "gay" in the current sense...it was just guys (straight or gay) needing release...or maybe just "bonding". Whether that in and of itself tempered the fear of homosexuality, I couldn't say. But, it was there...and a fact of life at that time.

Moving forward, what I do find funny today (but very sad, actually) are the myriad of snarky comments I see on this site (and elsewhere) with regards to the "Old Trolls" at the gym who sit around naked talking after a workout/shower at the gym, while the younger guys complaining about it do the Towel Dance. These younger men really seem to think that these are all old gay men just sitting around waiting to ogle them as they dress---and they couldn't be further from the truth. Most of these "old" guys were just used to the nudity and banter of their younger days...and are trying to recreate it in their own way. They're still very comfortable with it...

Thanks so much for sharing that! It’s really cool to hear how things were back then, and I appreciate you taking the time to dive into it. It’s interesting to see how different things were and how these topics—like body image or "gay panic"—weren’t such a thing compared to now. Thanks again for your insight!

 

[Janvier75]

Males Bonding

 

[Dohk]

View attachment 150860201

It's not bonding, but whenever I think of "old masculinity" I think of the Rescue at Rabaul photograph, taken 1944 on the pacific front of WWII.

Copying a story summarized from a US historical society:

This young crewman of a US Navy “Dumbo” PBY rescue mission has just jumped into the water of Rabaul Harbor to rescue a badly burned Marine pilot who was shot down while bombing the Japanese-held fortress of Rabaul. Since Japanese coastal defense guns were firing at the plane while it was in the water during take-off, this brave young man, after rescuing the pilot, manned his position as machine gunner without taking time to put on his clothes. A hero photographed right after he’d completed his heroic act. Naked.

Photo taken by Horace Bristol (1908-1997). In 1941, Bristol was recruited to the U.S. Naval Aviation Photographic Unit, as one of six photographers under the command of Captain Edward J. Steichen, documenting World War II in places such as South Africa, and Japan. He ended up being on the plane the gunner was serving on, which was used to rescue people from Rabaul Bay (New Britain Island, Papua New Guinea), when this occurred. In an article from a December 2002 issue of B&W magazine he remembers:

“…we got a call to pick up an airman who was down in the Bay. The Japanese were shooting at him from the island, and when they saw us they started shooting at us. The man who was shot down was temporarily blinded, so one of our crew stripped off his clothes and jumped in to bring him aboard. He couldn’t have swum very well wearing his boots and clothes. As soon as we could, we took off. We weren’t waiting around for anybody to put on formal clothes. We were being shot at and wanted to get the hell out of there. The naked man got back into his position at his gun in the blister of the plane.”

This navy man stripped out of his gear to rescue his fellow soldier, and upon returning to the Dumbo, he assumed his position at his gun in the middle of a battle.

There has not been a greater picture of what a man is... until 9/11, when we gain far too many more pictures of what being a man OR a woman really is.