Feel guilty about getting with married men?

[halcyondays]

Evolution allowed us to feel guilt for a reason. If you are feeling guilt, then you are doing something that you know you shouldn't be doing. That will be a heavy weight to carry.

Even if you don't understand it, when your brain is telling you that its bad then its almost certainly bad.

Evolution isn't the source of guilt for cheating. Morality from religion is. In the western world it comes directly from the Bible.

Biology (ethology - the study of animal behavior) tells us that humans do not form perfect pair bonds. Neither are we a tournament species where males have harems of females. Our reproductive instinct is somewhere in between these two extremes. Human males and females both desire more than one partner.

Absent a natural instinct to form 100% perfect pair bonds powerful social taboos have to be established to enforce pair bonding. Nothing says a behavior is taboo like the death penalty. Adultery, homosexual acts, violating the sabbath, idolatry, blasphemy, taking the lord's name in vain or even saying the lord's name aloud all warrant the death penalty in the Old Testament--none of which we accept as reasons to kill people in the Judeo-Christian world today.

But the taboo remains. Religious indoctrination creates an enormous amount of shame, guilt and sexual repression. It is unnatural--a lie--and should be rejected.

The sooner people accept the truth that human pair bonds will never be perfect the happier they will be and the sooner the shame, guilt and repression of sexuality will become a thing of the past.

Daniel to Sam: "the general wisdom is there isn't just one person for each of us."

 

[IntactMale]

Evolution isn't the source of guilt for cheating. Morality from religion is. In the western world it comes directly from the Bible.

Biology (ethology - the study of animal behavior) tells us that humans do not form perfect pair bonds. Neither are we a tournament species where males have harems of females. Our reproductive instinct is somewhere in between these two extremes. Human males and females both desire more than one partner.

Absent a natural instinct to form 100% perfect pair bonds powerful social taboos have to be established to enforce pair bonding. Nothing says a behavior is taboo like the death penalty. Adultery, homosexual acts, violating the sabbath, idolatry, blasphemy, taking the lord's name in vain or even saying the lord's name aloud all warrant the death penalty in the Old Testament--none of which we accept as reasons to kill people in the Judeo-Christian world today.

But the taboo remains. Religious indoctrination creates an enormous amount of shame, guilt and sexual repression. It is unnatural--a lie--and should be rejected.

The sooner people accept the truth that human pair bonds will never be perfect the happier they will be and the sooner the shame, guilt and repression of sexuality will become a thing of the past.

Daniel to Sam: "the general wisdom is there isn't just one person for each of us."

Morality does not come from religion, it comes from evolution. Otherwise, you would be suggesting that those without religion have no morality which is obviously wrong. I have no religion, I don't believe in god, and yet I have morality because I know how I would like to be treated by others and I treat other accordingly. I don't want to be hurt by others, so I don't hurt others. I don't want to be murdered by others, so I don't murder others. I don't want to be cheated on, so I don't cheat. I behave this way because I understand the pain that acting the other way causes, and I don't want myself or others to experience it. I want to, and for the most part do, live in a society where people do not treat each other in a way that they would not want to be treated.

Attributing this to religion doesn't make sense. Cultures throughout history have worked on the same basic principles, hurting each other is wrong, stealing is wrong, cheating is wrong, etc. And they have come to these conclusion despite having completely different, unrelated religions or no religion at all.

Even if you want to make the claim that morality comes from religion, religion comes from human minds which were developed through the process of evolution. Religion came from evolution, and it will be ended by evolution.

Human pair bonds are no perfect, except for when they are. I have known many couples that have been together, happy and exclusive for their lives. It might not work all the time, but sometimes it works.

Please don't make a claim about what biology "tells us" without providing a source for your claim.

 

[deleted1338241]

my 2 cents on it:

This is coming from a gay married guy. I’m happily married yet we still sometimes look for another guy to join us, even though we don’t go on our own. We talk about needs and desires and make sure everything is within set boundaries. And quite a few of my straight married friends do that with their wives, too. Guys have their desires and sometimes their relationship can’t completely satisfy them:

When a bisexual guy is in a relationship / marriage he can enjoy their time as much as he wants. He still won’t get whatever he gets from being with the gender not in the relationship and gay and straight sex is something different.

Or what about some kinks or overall sex practices your partner does not support, even as simple as giving head or rimming. I talk about anything with my friends and a few wives just don’t want to give head, yet alone lick their bums.

Another example would of course be the frequency. Your partner is not giving you that much attention you’d want from him/her for whatever reason. Pretty extreme example but say you only get sex once every three or more months.

Ideally you would talk with your partner about those desires and wishes and you’ll find a compromise that suits both of you just make sure it actually does suit you. Half-assed promises and borders aren’t helping anyone and you don’t want your loved ones to be unhappy, do you?

Of course you have to make cutbacks and compromises when you enter any relationship but you should be happier within the relationship than you’d be on your own. However I think you should never have to completely pass on desires, because that makes you unhappy in the long term.

The longer any desire is unfulfilled the unhappier you get the more likely you’ll still be fulfilling it, may it be with or without your partner knowing. If say a guy is cheating on his partner with you, it was his decision to give in and actively seek out sex with another man. How would rejecting him help anyway? He’ll likely try to hook another guy then because face it you’re more likely just a tool at that situation. So while you could still be the metaphorical weapon to ‘kill’ a relationship you’re not the offender. It’s him and it’s up to him to decide that.

 

[Allmight247]

Wow.. be gay but have some type of respect and morality. When I was younger I did that but I’m 25 not only are u disrespecting urself but someone else’s partner. Yeah they fucked up but you knowing that their married makes you a shitty human being.. not judging u just stating facts. I hope none of the wives find out because fucking with the wrong one can end you in a body bag

 

[deleted1338241]

I know what it's like to be on the other side, too, though. I had 2 relationships both of them wanted an exclusive relationship before my current one, but I also had fwb's with other gay couples before that, so I was never really opposed to the thought of having an open relationship.

The first one went to cruising grounds whenever I was not with him - on a daily base as I found out half a year later. Yes, it felt shit and I was pretty pissed at him. But just at him. How can I even remotely be mad at people I don't even know?

The second one was living a bit further away so we only saw each other during weekend. He had an affair with his exbf shortly after we've gotten together. They met up at the gay bathhouse and my ex basically fucked the whole region bareback. Was I really mad? Hell yes I was. But again just at him. I am just happy now I didn't catch anything.

It would've been a whole different story if I actually knew the other guys casually or even worse if they were considered friends at a point. Then I would obviously be pissed at them, too.

We currently have a few bi married fwbs and we do know their women. However they are okay with it and some even like to watch. We would never go any further with any married buds whose women don't know and especially not if we do know the women, too.

 

[jujube]

Morality does not come from religion, it comes from evolution. Otherwise, you would be suggesting that those without religion have no morality which is obviously wrong. I have no religion, I don't believe in god, and yet I have morality because I know how I would like to be treated by others and I treat other accordingly. I don't want to be hurt by others, so I don't hurt others. I don't want to be murdered by others, so I don't murder others. I don't want to be cheated on, so I don't cheat. I behave this way because I understand the pain that acting the other way causes, and I don't want myself or others to experience it. I want to, and for the most part do, live in a society where people do not treat each other in a way that they would not want to be treated.

Attributing this to religion doesn't make sense. Cultures throughout history have worked on the same basic principles, hurting each other is wrong, stealing is wrong, cheating is wrong, etc. And they have come to these conclusion despite having completely different, unrelated religions or no religion at all.

Even if you want to make the claim that morality comes from religion, religion comes from human minds which were developed through the process of evolution. Religion came from evolution, and it will be ended by evolution.

Human pair bonds are no perfect, except for when they are. I have known many couples that have been together, happy and exclusive for their lives. It might not work all the time, but sometimes it works.

Please don't make a claim about what biology "tells us" without providing a source for your claim.

IntactMale, thank you for your great response to halcyondays. You have written most of what I wanted to write, but I might add the following:

But the taboo remains. Religious indoctrination creates an enormous amount of shame, guilt and sexual repression. It is unnatural--a lie--and should be rejected.

My lack of desire for sexual intercourse outside a committed relationship has nothing to do with religious indoctrination, something that I have never experienced. I would prefer that my partner felt the same way.

In my personal history, this has in fact been a deal breaker -- an ex told me that he wanted to "share" me with a friend of his, a suggestion that I found utterly repugnant and unforgivable. I wish that people who had such creepy desires would state them clearly before agreeing to be in an exclusive sexual relationship so that I could avoid them from the start.

 

[thick_cock_306]

Morality does not come from religion, it comes from evolution. Otherwise, you would be suggesting that those without religion have no morality which is obviously wrong. I have no religion, I don't believe in god, and yet I have morality because I know how I would like to be treated by others and I treat other accordingly. I don't want to be hurt by others, so I don't hurt others. I don't want to be murdered by others, so I don't murder others. I don't want to be cheated on, so I don't cheat. I behave this way because I understand the pain that acting the other way causes, and I don't want myself or others to experience it. I want to, and for the most part do, live in a society where people do not treat each other in a way that they would not want to be treated.

Attributing this to religion doesn't make sense. Cultures throughout history have worked on the same basic principles, hurting each other is wrong, stealing is wrong, cheating is wrong, etc. And they have come to these conclusion despite having completely different, unrelated religions or no religion at all.

Even if you want to make the claim that morality comes from religion, religion comes from human minds which were developed through the process of evolution. Religion came from evolution, and it will be ended by evolution.

Human pair bonds are no perfect, except for when they are. I have known many couples that have been together, happy and exclusive for their lives. It might not work all the time, but sometimes it works.

Please don't make a claim about what biology "tells us" without providing a source for your claim.

Morality from evolution? That's incredible. Not to be rude but I don't think you know how evolution works. All animals that exist today are as well 'evolved' as we are...we just evolved differently.
On the issue of morality, does a lion feel guilty when it kills the cubs of a pride that it just took over? Does a snake feel guilt when it swallows whole bird eggs...right in front of the mother?
Guilt is a social construct. We create reasons for feeling guilty. A man might feel guilty for killing another man in a car accident, but that same man might not feel guilty for killing in war. The reasons for death are different, even though the outcome is the same.
You have morality because you were raised in a society that has ethical rules....and those rules (in part) originate out of religious beliefs (not necessarily your own).
Your argument makes no sense, sorry dude.

 

[Allmight247]

Morality from evolution? That's incredible. Not to be rude but I don't think you know how evolution works. All animals that exist today are as well 'evolved' as we are...we just evolved differently.
On the issue of morality, does a lion feel guilty when it kills the cubs of a pride that it just took over? Does a snake feel guilt when it swallows whole bird eggs...right in front of the mother?
Guilt is a social construct. We create reasons for feeling guilty. A man might feel guilty for killing another man in a car accident, but that same man might not feel guilty for killing in war. The reasons for death are different, even though the outcome is the same.
You have morality because you were raised in a society that has ethical rules....and those rules (in part) originate out of religious beliefs (not necessarily your own).
Your argument makes no sense, sorry dude.

I think people feel guilty when they know they’ve done something wrong. We don’t kill people because we know it’s wrong, we don’t try and hurt people because we know better. We develop these habits throughout life, so whether you choose to ignore them, or play them off as non existent you’re just simply denying the truth. Idk maybe you’re a sociopath tbh but human beings are not only emotional but we’re cognisent. Lions don’t feel bad because they can’t reflect on their actions, and survival is obviously more important than moral judgement. Anyone would through out morality in the face of self preservation so that wasn’t a good analogy.

 

[thick_cock_306]

I think people feel guilty when they know they’ve done something wrong. We don’t kill people because we know it’s wrong, we don’t try and hurt people because we know better. We develop these habits throughout life, so whether you choose to ignore them, or play them off as non existent you’re just simply denying the truth. Idk maybe you’re a sociopath tbh but human beings are not only emotional but we’re cognisent. Lions don’t feel bad because they can’t reflect on their actions, and survival is obviously more important than moral judgement. Anyone would through out morality in the face of self preservation so that wasn’t a good analogy.

I used lions as an example, not an analogy. Only humans feel guilt, and yes obviously it's because they believe they've done something wrong. Jesus, that just goes without saying.
My point was that guilt has nothing to do with evolution. We are just as evolved as other species of animals...we (humans) know this 'cause we can see that other animals are surviving...and that's all evolution is.
Why don't you first try reading what I wrote at the beginning of this thread? " Lately I've been feeling more and more guilty about the married guys in my life. I hate the idea of causing a family to break up. I understand that it could be I'm providing something he can't or just plain isn't getting at home, but I still make the choice to be with someone married."
I do feel guilty, the issue is to what extent am I hurting other people.

 

[328982]

Morality from evolution? That's incredible. Not to be rude but I don't think you know how evolution works. All animals that exist today are as well 'evolved' as we are...we just evolved differently.
On the issue of morality, does a lion feel guilty when it kills the cubs of a pride that it just took over? Does a snake feel guilt when it swallows whole bird eggs...right in front of the mother?
Guilt is a social construct. We create reasons for feeling guilty. A man might feel guilty for killing another man in a car accident, but that same man might not feel guilty for killing in war. The reasons for death are different, even though the outcome is the same.
You have morality because you were raised in a society that has ethical rules....and those rules (in part) originate out of religious beliefs (not necessarily your own).
Your argument makes no sense, sorry dude.

Dogs are socialised to feel guilt. You should be more like Denver

 

[328982]

I don't believe in god, and yet I have morality because I know how I would like to be treated by others and I treat other accordingly. I don't want to be hurt by others, so I don't hurt others. I don't want to be murdered by others, so I don't murder others. I don't want to be cheated on, so I don't cheat. I behave this way because I understand the pain that acting the other way causes, and I don't want myself or others to experience it. I want to, and for the most part do, live in a society where people do not treat each other in a way that they would not want to be treated

Sounds awfully like 'do unto others'

 

[thick_cock_306]

Dogs are socialised to feel guilt. You should be more like Denver

adorable.

 

[328982]

adorable.

Totally. I do wonder whether he's being shamed into a display of guilt or whether the guilt is truly internalised. In other words, did he feel guilt on his own before the human master was demanding a show of remorse.

 

[milo1730]

If anyone's in the Chicago area, I wouldn't mind giving you something to feel guilty about (married guy here, looking for his first dude-on-dude experience)

Where are you? In the city or suburbs?

 

[Tight_N_Juicy]

Oh, look. More shitty people. Fucking disgusting assholes.

 

[Tight_N_Juicy]

And yes. Guilt exists because of evolution.

Whether or not you "believe" it, you can look it up. It's been studied.

 

[IntactMale]

Morality from evolution? That's incredible. Not to be rude but I don't think you know how evolution works. All animals that exist today are as well 'evolved' as we are...we just evolved differently.
On the issue of morality, does a lion feel guilty when it kills the cubs of a pride that it just took over? Does a snake feel guilt when it swallows whole bird eggs...right in front of the mother?
Guilt is a social construct. We create reasons for feeling guilty. A man might feel guilty for killing another man in a car accident, but that same man might not feel guilty for killing in war. The reasons for death are different, even though the outcome is the same.
You have morality because you were raised in a society that has ethical rules....and those rules (in part) originate out of religious beliefs (not necessarily your own).
Your argument makes no sense, sorry dude.

Yes, other animals are actually capable of feeling guilt. Look it up on YouTube, there are videos of dogs clearly displaying guilt when they have don't something that is against their owners rules.

But that doesn't matter, every evolves in a different way, and even if it human evolution has been unique in that it includes the ability to feel guilt, it still includes the ability to feel guilt. And even if the ability to feel guilt only comes from religion, well religion only comes from humans evolution which originated the ability to create religion.

Even if it is a social construct as you say, society is an effect of human evolution. If humans did not evolve as we did then we would not have society as we have it.

Nothing that I have said values one course of evolution over another, I don't know where you got that but it wasn't from me. The only point I argued was that the origin of guilt comes from our course through evolution and the origin is not in any way in religion. If anything, guilt is the origin of religion.

My argument made plenty of sense. I'm not sure you even make an argument.

 

[IntactMale]

I used lions as an example, not an analogy. Only humans feel guilt, and yes obviously it's because they believe they've done something wrong. Jesus, that just goes without saying.
My point was that guilt has nothing to do with evolution. We are just as evolved as other species of animals...we (humans) know this 'cause we can see that other animals are surviving...and that's all evolution is.
Why don't you first try reading what I wrote at the beginning of this thread? " Lately I've been feeling more and more guilty about the married guys in my life. I hate the idea of causing a family to break up. I understand that it could be I'm providing something he can't or just plain isn't getting at home, but I still make the choice to be with someone married."
I do feel guilty, the issue is to what extent am I hurting other people.

"Just as evolved" shows that you don't understand evolution. There is no end goal of evolution, no progression towards a goal. All living things on Earth have been evolving as long as all others in some sense. There is no judgement of distance in evolution, just as evolved is a meaningless thing to say. If one species evolves for 50 millions years to crack open a certain type of nut, while another species evolves over the same period of time to develop tools, culture, society, etc. Both have evolved just as much, but the subjective value of how much they have achieved through the process of evolution during that time is different.

The fact that you are capable of feeling guilt is an effect of evolution and not religion.

 

[IntactMale]

Sounds awfully like 'do unto others'

Yes, it does. The concept of doing unto others is born out of our relationship to each other. The words were written in a book long after the concept was already ingrained in the minds of most people.

It is an easy argument to make that all animals that live in large groups, especially herding animals, exhibit some understanding of the same principle. And yet, they are all devoid of religion.

 

[thick_cock_306]

"Just as evolved" shows that you don't understand evolution. There is no end goal of evolution, no progression towards a goal. All living things on Earth have been evolving as long as all others in some sense. There is no judgement of distance in evolution, just as evolved is a meaningless thing to say. If one species evolves for 50 millions years to crack open a certain type of nut, while another species evolves over the same period of time to develop tools, culture, society, etc. Both have evolved just as much, but the subjective value of how much they have achieved through the process of evolution during that time is different.

The fact that you are capable of feeling guilt is an effect of evolution and not religion.

No dude, I studied this stuff in college. "Just as evolved" means we humans are NOT any more evolved than say lions. We just evolved differently. So if all other animals (in the wild) don't show any signs of guilt, ours is therefore not from evolution, but from society's idea of morality.