homophobia among white straight men

[nhguy78]

I think everybody on some level digs guys. I mean, the male is usually the more attractive of the two in the animal kingdom, cuz his drive is spread the seed as much as he can. I think that carries over to humans.

Male is the more attractive of the two in the animal kingdom?

1) attractiveness is in the eye of the beholder. That is your opinion only.
2) only two sexes? How do you explain the genetic variations in sex traits?
3) so, attractiveness, according to this quote here, is dependent on his sex drive?

 

[HiddenHand]

What kind of examples are you referring to? It's been fairly well studied

These are totally based on my own experiences and observations, so I shouldn’t have made such an all encompassing generalization as I have conflicting opinions: But women like a lot of moms And grandmothers I haven known (like my own), and various girls I have known through the years who were fine with their friend being gay, but would get really shitty if their boyfriend got very friendly.

Just like now I’m an adult and realize “lo and behold “- Some ladies are very attractive and I can see why society would have, at one time, encourage them to be men to be with them. The presence of existing homohobic institutional belief from my early childhood suggests that it took a constant barrage of shaming and propaganda from all sides to kinda force men to be be with one.

What does "get gayer" mean? They were bisexual and lean more into the gay side later in life? Or are you suggesting they actually become "gay" after being previously straight?

No, in my experience, there is truth to the whole fluid sexuality thing, moreso than gender being fluid. They maybe have always been curious and for some reason or another they are more open to trying it. I will add I was a runaway and supported myself by having sex for money and I never had my own place so i was always couch surfing so maybe my experiences are skewed. But a lot of straight guys would want sex in exchange for crashing there.

As far as between men and women, I think there’s an undercurrent of division between all different types of people going on in society the past few years. In 2008, homophobia and racism weren’t a thing. America was so comfortable with it, that different races could acknowledge their cultural differences and makes jokes about it and both sides laugh equally and it was fun. There wasn’t an animosity or “us vs. then” vibe.

The same with gay and straight. They could make fun of each other and both laugh with each other and not be insulted because they were both just an nuts. Maybe that’s my experience because I’m a “cis white male”. That’s the privilege I guess. Men generally don’t have animosity toward one another when there isn’t women or money involved.

Also in recent years, there’s been a major push on putting men and women against each other. It’s no secret we’ve all been raised to despise femininity (and I’m referring to society’s construct of feminine characteristics, not actual birthing and child rearing which is what women are born to do). It’s been twisted into this vain, very worldly pettiness. They aren’t allowed to really enjoy anything, or they’re shamed for it. It’s all about this artificiality. Simultaneously, a lot of women say they don’t like “girly prissy girls” and would rather hang with the guys. Gay men generally aren’t attracted to feminine (society’s version) guys. “If I wanted a woman, I’d be with one”. The most “feminine” guys are the ones more likely to say that too. Then you have all the lesbians who all think the more masculine lesbians who lip sync 50cent are their “thirst traps”.

Sure, you have exceptions in every one of these, but they are exceptions. So everyone wants a man, but we are simulatneously telling men that their behavior is toxic, that the male as strong and self sufficient and confident. They are afraid to ask girls out. It’s easier to have sex with another guy or become an incel and start hating women (so maybe not everyone is fluid after all).

My point? I lost it somewhere. It’s a clusterfuck of humanity. And whose fault is it? Who knows. Mine. Yours. Ours. Some divine spirit. I dunno. I’m sorry I’m just rambling now.

Also I don’t mean anything negative towards anyone. Either that, or we’re all just insufferable assholes. But I don’t think I’m better than anyone and I don’t think a lot of people do. Hell, we’ve all been programmed to be psychotically self conscious. I always felt like Anne Frank was right when she said that deep down she believed that everyone wants to be a good person and do good things in the world. I agree, but what is good? What is right? And then where does all this place “free”?

Well that’s enough wake’n’baking for me.

There is no evidence to suggest this whatsoever. There are plenty of people not attracted to men and it's again pretty common than that women are considered the "fairer sex" and more sexualized of the 2 sexes anyway.

Men are usually more visually turned on than women are and on average, men have higher sex drives as well. Men are also typically lower in impulse control, and high in "sensation seeking" behavior. So what you said just naturally tracks with that.

 

[HiddenHand]

Male is the more attractive of the two in the animal kingdom?

1) attractiveness is in the eye of the beholder. That is your opinion only.

I’m talking like peacocks. Lol. Birds and fish, a lot of times the male is more “beautiful” but the females get to pick. Acccording to some nature show I saw years ago.

2) only two sexes? How do you explain the genetic variations in sex traits?

That I have no explanation for.

3) so, attractiveness, according to this quote here, is dependent on his sex drive?

Yes, a lot of times. That’s why “beer goggles” and the whole “show me a beautiful women (or man) and I’ll show you a man that’s bored of fucking her”. Gay guys are for the most part, the same. It’s maybe not polite to acknowledge but it’s true for the most part.

 

[HiddenHand]

These are totally based on my own experiences and observations, so I shouldn’t have made such an all encompassing generalization as I have conflicting opinions: But women like a lot of moms And grandmothers I haven known (like my own), and various girls I have known through the years who were fine with their friend being gay, but would get really shitty if their boyfriend got very friendly.

Just like now I’m an adult and realize “lo and behold “- Some ladies are very attractive and I can see why society would have, at one time, encourage them to be men to be with them. The presence of existing homohobic institutional belief from my early childhood suggests that it took a constant barrage of shaming and propaganda from all sides to kinda force men to be be with one.



No, in my experience, there is truth to the whole fluid sexuality thing, moreso than gender being fluid. They maybe have always been curious and for some reason or another they are more open to trying it. I will add I was a runaway and supported myself by having sex for money and I never had my own place so i was always couch surfing so maybe my experiences are skewed. But a lot of straight guys would want sex in exchange for crashing there.

As far as between men and women, I think there’s an undercurrent of division between all different types of people going on in society the past few years. In 2008, homophobia and racism weren’t a thing. America was so comfortable with it, that different races could acknowledge their cultural differences and makes jokes about it and both sides laugh equally and it was fun. There wasn’t an animosity or “us vs. then” vibe.

The same with gay and straight. They could make fun of each other and both laugh with each other and not be insulted because they were both just an nuts. Maybe that’s my experience because I’m a “cis white male”. That’s the privilege I guess. Men generally don’t have animosity toward one another when there isn’t women or money involved.

Also in recent years, there’s been a major push on putting men and women against each other. It’s no secret we’ve all been raised to despise femininity (and I’m referring to society’s construct of feminine characteristics, not actual birthing and child rearing which is what women are born to do). It’s been twisted into this vain, very worldly pettiness. They aren’t allowed to really enjoy anything, or they’re shamed for it. It’s all about this artificiality. Simultaneously, a lot of women say they don’t like “girly prissy girls” and would rather hang with the guys. Gay men generally aren’t attracted to feminine (society’s version) guys. “If I wanted a woman, I’d be with one”. The most “feminine” guys are the ones more likely to say that too. Then you have all the lesbians who all think the more masculine lesbians who lip sync 50cent are their “thirst traps”.

Sure, you have exceptions in every one of these, but they are exceptions. So everyone wants a man, but we are simulatneously telling men that their behavior is toxic, that the male as strong and self sufficient and confident. They are afraid to ask girls out. It’s easier to have sex with another guy or become an incel and start hating women (so maybe not everyone is fluid after all).

My point? I lost it somewhere. It’s a clusterfuck of humanity. And whose fault is it? Who knows. Mine. Yours. Ours. Some divine spirit. I dunno. I’m sorry I’m just rambling now.

Also I don’t mean anything negative towards anyone. Either that, or we’re all just insufferable assholes. But I don’t think I’m better than anyone and I don’t think a lot of people do. Hell, we’ve all been programmed to be psychotically self conscious. I always felt like Anne Frank was right when she said that deep down she believed that everyone wants to be a good person and do good things in the world. I agree, but what is good? What is right? And then where does all this place “free”?

Well that’s enough wake’n’baking for me.

Wow, I sound like an woman hater but I’m not. I mean, “From the Choirgirl Hotel” is my favorite album to this very day. (Which is a joke, but also true). I had a lot of thoughts coming fast and I don’t usually comment in online forums, I’m more of a reader.

 

[nhguy78]

I’m talking like peacocks. Lol. Birds and fish, a lot of times the male is more “beautiful” but the females get to pick. Acccording to some nature show I saw years ago.


That I have no explanation for.

Yes, a lot of times. That’s why “beer goggles” and the whole “show me a beautiful women (or man) and I’ll show you a man that’s bored of fucking her”. Gay guys are for the most part, the same. It’s maybe not polite to acknowledge but it’s true for the most part.

It's generaliztions for me. Assumptions and the targeting of women specifically. It's best to take your time replying and say what you really mean.

The last response to mine I will expand on here, though. Just because someone fucks another does not necessarily mean they're attracted to each other in the way homosexuals are to each other or heterosexuals, bisexuals, or pansexuals. It could be entirely situational or the needs of the individuals aligned such that it didn't matter the attractiveness of the individuals. Sometimes needs outweight the beauty. I am asexual but if I am horny, it won't matter. I could find someone completely ugly and literally unattractive but if they have proven skills it won't matter to me. Maybe there's a better word for that. But remember, sexual orientation is not about behavior but attraction.

Sex workers, prisoners, drunk guys in a dorm, etc., are not necessarily attracted to you or another just because they're fucking. Understanding this let's you see the full breadth of human sexuality and the sexual continuum.

 

[HiddenHand]

that makes sense. I guess that is a definitely major difference doing something for a purpose and doing it because you are truly digging it.

 

[dreambridger]

It's generaliztions for me. Assumptions and the targeting of women specifically. It's best to take your time replying and say what you really mean.

just feel like pointing out that this thread has assumed and targeted straight white men specifically. I feel bringing up that women can be very homophobic and that many of us have experienced that firsthand just adds balance to the thread.

 

[hotcouple_be]

one other thing i'd like to point out, is that homophobia is far more prevalent in some asian, african and muslim countries than you can ever dream it to be in the west.

a white guy will at worst maybe laught at you and throw some slur, not classy to say the least,
but very few would go as far as truelly treat you like absolute shit or actively try to cause you bodily harm.

i befriended a trans girl almost a decade ago, she always told me the most shit she ever took was from her father who's south korean.
he was pretty much ready to disown her up till the point she had an art degree and had a well paying job as a designer, and still he make a pretty big difference between her and his 2 other kids.

i can ask her if you want but i'm like 99% sure she would tell you white people are the ones she would be the less likely to have troubles with and especially as time goes on.

now that being said, she's not the type to look for troubles neither and even have quite a bit of self derision, she'd be the first to pull an edgy joke about the fact she's trans and even enjoy whenever i pull a good one too because she know i'm teasing her not out of disrespect but because she's my friend.

let's be honest, i'm an asshole, it would be far more descriminatory if she was the only one i spared

all i'm saying is, no matter your gender, color, orientation, the only one thing as certain as death and taxes, is that you will take shit from people.

some will blame it on sexism, racism, homo/transphobia, ...
but truth is, we all share 99% of the same crap, and the last 1% is just our personnal dedicated flavor.

 

[rimster42]

I've experienced the opposite. For me, straight white men have been super supportive and are LGBT allies. The homophobia has been from straight black and hispanic men.

 

[Sam0021]

You do not say where you live, or, disclose your age group.

Among older white males homophobia is alive and well.

Canada, and age group is 20-30

 

[Sam0021]

What makes you assume its homophobia?

Not saying it isn't but if you come off as a bit flirty they may just want to know or may be signalling a lack of interest.

From my experience guys don't meet friends that way often, in fact many men don't have friends at all. So friendliness can be seen as a bit unusual especially from another guy.

But lets say it is homophobia, I don't think it's a white straight men problem, I've seen plenty of homophobic black guys over the years. I think alot of it is cultural. Older white guys in the UK tend to be more anti gay because it was illegal in the UK until the 60s I believe, and a mental illness until 1992. In other non white majority countries, it is often still illegal or a taboo.

I tend to just assume the best in people and realise some guys aren't comfortable w their own sexuality or masculinity. I also assume that there may be any number of reasons for this type of behaviour, many we will never know.

Good luck!

 

[Sam0021]

What makes you assume its homophobia?

Not saying it isn't but if you come off as a bit flirty they may just want to know or may be signalling a lack of interest.

From my experience guys don't meet friends that way often, in fact many men don't have friends at all. So friendliness can be seen as a bit unusual especially from another guy.

But lets say it is homophobia, I don't think it's a white straight men problem, I've seen plenty of homophobic black guys over the years. I think alot of it is cultural. Older white guys in the UK tend to be more anti gay because it was illegal in the UK until the 60s I believe, and a mental illness until 1992. In other non white majority countries, it is often still illegal or a taboo.

I tend to just assume the best in people and realise some guys aren't comfortable w their own sexuality or masculinity. I also assume that there may be any number of reasons for this type of behaviour, many we will never know.

Good luck!

hmm, you made many interesting points.. firstly to be clear, i didn't ask anything in a flirting way at all, and if i did, i am sure i would have gotten this question from other Asian, Black or Arabs that I have met and talked in exactly the same way i talked to the white guys. and to be clear, i am not gay and my comments were not at all in any way implied that. regarding friends, i am really surprised when you say that some men don't have friends at all, in my life i haven't met a single person of any age group who didn't have friends, but i have to admit i am new to so-called western world.. so maybe the reason could be.. as i am not white, so white men somehow may have perceived that why this non white guy is trying to be friends with me, maybe the case would be they would prefer to be friends with other white guys, and may have just used this sentence so that i don't talk to them again.. i don't know..and quite interestingly, i have met only a few older white males and they responded very normally to my hello

 

[Sam0021]

Homophobia is everywhere .. you may be comparing it to white straight me because you’re around white people more..

Ignorance doesn’t have a color.. white black red brown or whatever.. homophobia is everywhere ..- even with guys that I’ve known to have sex wit guys but then turn around and hate gay people

that's very odd, those who have had sex with guys, why would they hate gay people????

 

[Sam0021]

You said it's cultural and I agree. Furthermore, I'm not sure that I (a white guy) would be as aware or sensitive to signals and reactions from other cultures...? Doesn't mean they don't exist, just wondering.

so, is that white men don't like to make friends? but in my observation, the guys i tried talking to have many friends..

 

[Sam0021]

Not gonna leave my white bros hanging..lol
We could get into a deep dive of the social and cultural sources of homophobia amongst straight men, but Ive observed two things, that doesn't come with a color, and 2nd as a man of color from the inside looking out, Id posit you're actually less likely to encounter homophobia from an average white guy, than an average brown or black man, given our respective cultural contexts. It could be you simply don't encounter black and brown homophobic men as much because their aversion is so profound they never get to a stage of interaction which you could discern it. It could be if you are a person of color, your homosexuality is going to be received differently amongst white men than if you were white yourself, it could be even you being in a diverse area, only white men feel comfortable enough to be forthcoming with their averse opinion without enduring social consequences.
It could also be similar to how most men in general would consider other men to be the most homophobic and transphobic, when its really women that socially punish homosexual and transexual proximity amongst straight men, but "ideologically" align with gays and trans under the umbrella of a shared discriminatory experience; so perhaps black and brown men, not being the status quo, offer that same "alignment" by not being as forwardly homophobic.

okay, maybe i used the wrong term homophobic for situation,, i am not gay.. what i was trying to say is that whenever i have tried to talk to or be friends with white people, most of them responded with these questions like are you gay, or similar questions.. but even after i told them, i am not, they still didn't believe me...or atleast their body language showed that.. and i have talked to many brown and black and hispanic people as well, and i never got this question and i am friends with them, despite cultural, religious, lingusitic differences..

 

[Sam0021]

Of course it an exclusive white straight male thing… didn’t you know, they’re the sole source of all evil…

lol..that's not what i was getting at... i think i used wrong term to describe the situation as "homophobia" because i am not gay, but i have gotten this question about if i am gay around 100 times from white men only, so that's why i thought i will ask here that what i am doing wrong.. I have asked my non white friends also that did they perceive me as gay when i first talked to them, and they said no.. so, i really don't know what wrong do i do when i meet whites that i get this question..

 

[Sam0021]

there's a big difference between "homophobic" shit talking, as in questioning each other sexual tendencies as a mean to tease each other, and actually truelly homophobic slur directed at people who really are homosexuals.

the first is pretty much normal among guys, and doesn't stop there as often enough even our mother's sexual practice and preference come into question.
again, it's nothing but shit talking and should never, ever be taken seriously.

that being said, i hardly ever encountered truelly homophobic guys, and better yet, the very few i did were so over the top it almost seemed suspicious, if ya see what i mean.

best exemple is a guy i used to work with, an italian guy who was homophobic and transphobic AF.

at one point he split up with his wife and she had just moved.
went to his place with a few other friends,
trying to cheer him up a bit with liquid courrage, you know the deal.

at one point i had to open the floodgate and make the colossus cry, so i ask to go to the bathroom, while washing my hands i notice a sh*tload of beauty product, creams for every moment of the day, peeling and what not... don't think any of my gf had that much stuff but hey, whatever.

i go back downstair and ask him why his wife left all that stuff behind, and that's when he told me that no no, all that stuff was his ... :x

i'm not saying guys shouldn't take care of themselve, but when you got more grooming products than not only your gf/wife, but an instagram model when you're like 25yo and a dude, and at the same time over the top homophobic ... call me paranoid but i think he wasn't telling us the whole story lol

omg... the story that you shared is really very interesting,...i agree what you are saying.. haha

 

[thom_green2003]

so, is that white men don't like to make friends? but in my observation, the guys i tried talking to have many friends..

What I said was "cultural", that's the key word for me. I used white as an example referencing your choice earlier, but I do NOT think any of this is racial or ethnic. I'm sure of it in that I've known large groups of guys that might perhaps be hispanic, that might also act/react VERY differently than hispanic guys from a different city or state or country. Cultural, regional, religious, political, age group, there are many factors that could influence and certain group of men to behave a certain way.

 

[Sagittarius84]

okay, maybe i used the wrong term homophobic for situation,, i am not gay.. what i was trying to say is that whenever i have tried to talk to or be friends with white people, most of them responded with these questions like are you gay, or similar questions.. but even after i told them, i am not, they still didn't believe me...or atleast their body language showed that.. and i have talked to many brown and black and hispanic people as well, and i never got this question and i am friends with them, despite cultural, religious, lingusitic differences..

If you don't mind me asking, nationality and ethnicity wise, what are you?

 

[Sagittarius84]

What kind of examples are you referring to? It's been fairly well studied that men on average are more homophobic than women.

Is it that more men are homophobic, or much like stats on domestic violence, is it that the homophobia we do display tends to have much more catastrophic overt consequences?
Because I think a common human tendency, especially those that tend to subscribe to a more effeminate or gynocentric social order, is that the quantification of a thing lies more in the relative impact of the occurrence, then how often the occurrence happens. For example, the logic displayed in the assumption of men being more homophobic on average than women would be akin to looking at two identical neighborhoods, one that has a non fatal shooting at least 2x a month, the other relatively peaceful except for the average 1 gruesome murder a yr, and declaring the latter "more violent" than the former.