Had my frenulum removed and the difference is hardly noticeable. I guess your mileage may vary. What you say here makes no sense at all. Losing all sensation = having your penis chopped off. Are you saying that removing the frenulum is akin to penectomy?
I'm Undergoing Adult Circumcision For Religious Reasons In Possibly A Year Or Two, I Have A Dilemma
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Sensation wise, usually. Maybe you didn't really have all of yours removed? Studies have shown the frenulum to be the most sensitive part of the penis, and a LOT of guys cut as adults say losing it removed a tremendous amount of sensation. I'm sure there's some genetic variability involved, like some guys have more sensitive frenula than others, or some guys it's more closer to the glans while others is more sensitive closer to the opening of the foreskin. And depending on those variables, different circumcision styles will have different effects as well. But in general, losing the frenulum removes a significant amount of sensation.
I'm gonna back jack up on this one. I had my frenulum removed and didn't notice any diference.
I ran a poll over at the circumcision reddit where i asked guys who had had an adult frenulum removal (i.e. people who actually have experience of both) to pick what style of circumcision they would recommend. 72% recommended removing it while 28% advised keeping it. It doesn't seem plausible to me that 72% of guys would recommend a procedure that made them "lose all sensation".
IME the whole "frenulum is the male G-spot" thing is more propaganda from the anti-circ community. The claim is not supported by the testimonials of the majority of guys who have had it removed as adults.
I also think it's very patronising to tell Jack that his frenulum wasn't really removed, like he doesn't know any better.
I ran a poll over at the circumcision reddit where i asked guys who had had an adult frenulum removal (i.e. people who actually have experience of both) to pick what style of circumcision they would recommend. 72% recommended removing it while 28% advised keeping it. It doesn't seem plausible to me that 72% of guys would recommend a procedure that made them "lose all sensation".
IME the whole "frenulum is the male G-spot" thing is more propaganda from the anti-circ community. The claim is not supported by the testimonials of the majority of guys who have had it removed as adults.
I also think it's very patronising to tell Jack that his frenulum wasn't really removed, like he doesn't know any better.
I have to agree, when I was circumcised the completely removed my frenulum, and I barely have any sensation on the underside of my cock, and I hear a lot of guys say it's the most sensitive part. I think I must be missing a great deal from not having a frenulum.
I find it absolutely absurd that a man's "god given" skin should be knifed by man to comply with man's twisted interpretations on god's wish list. The small and big things all wrong that man has done through the ages in "god's name".
You have to ask yourself though, how many guys have actually experienced it both ways? With and without a frenulum? Anyone who hasn't is simply speculating on how much sensation they would have or how much they might lose and doesn't really know either way. The only people you can trust is guys who have had their frenulums removed as adults. My experience is that some of them regret it and say they miss the sensations but the majority of them don't. My own personal experience (as a guy who had his removed) is that it's the most overrated part of the male anatomy.
What's left of my frenulum is, by far, the most sensitive part. There are sensations there that I don't feel from my glans. Maybe I'm not missing much if I can still feel them, I don't know.
A poll you ran on reddit does not translate to the majority of guys who had it removed as adults. It's not the same as scientific research. That being said, I hear of men who had their frenulum removed and say they don't experience any problem also. I think that warrants further research. Clearly, some men are significantly affected by its removal and some are not. I don't know if that means the wiring for sensation develops in different parts of the penis based on genetics, or if that means one doctor removes all the frenulum and another doctor thinks he did but didn't actually.
My question about the frenulum really being removed wasn't meant to be patronizing. I just mean maybe it wasn't as complete as he thought. Like maybe they got all of the cord, but the sensitive area spread out further than what was removed, so that there wasn't much difference in sensation afterwards. Or maybe it's because those cut as adults aren't experiencing sensation through the 20+ years of keratinization we've accumulated. I can only speculate on that..
What was your experience of sensation in the frenulum before? If that's not the male g-spot, what would you say is? From my own experience, almost all the sensation I can feel is from what's left of my frenulum. There is very little sensation on the head, and what there is is irritating, not pleasant. There is some pleasant sensation on the back ridge of the head, but it's not much, and less colorful, than what I experience from my frenulum remnant. When I hear cut guys talk about how the head is the most sensative part, I'm imagining them only being able to feel what I can feel on the coronal ridge. So I'm thinking, if what they feel and rave about I can imagine, and I know there is so much more than what they are experiencing, and they can't even imagine it, what more could I be experiencing that I can't even imagine? I've heard a lot of uncut men say the ridged bands are even more sensitive than the frenulum, with their own sensations that can't be felt in the frenulum.
I have a very, very long and complicated, deep history with circumcision. I had never been squeamish about it, although I can’t bear to watch anything with blood in it (always been strongly adverse to blood), and actually did it myself. From the moment I read as a teenager that Abraham circumcised himself, it was immovably lodged in my head I could, should, and will do it myself. It became somewhat inevitable.
I also have a very complicated history with homosexuality, and a very complicated history with Judaism. The latter was severely affected by the former and vice versa. I don’t know where the idea of circumcision came from, I just knew like I just knew I was gay and just knew what my religion is. It’s not for here why and how each of things came to be personally acknowledged and worked out where they fit in my life, but it’s all and always a complicated journey for everyone.
It took me a long time to get around to each of those things, acknowledging them was the first issue, and my appointment with the Beit Din is looming close.
Clearly I don’t need to get circumcised again, I did a pretty thorough job first time around, although in all honesty despite all I’ve just said I actually would. The more you go through the Jprep process the more you’ll come to understand why circumcision is important. I was lucky as it was never an issue, and actually despite my circumcision history it really isn’t something I think about when in a Jewish environment.
You said you’re in Birmingham, I guess you’re not converting to Reform as there’s no Reform shul there. In Reform, which I am, there is an obligation for b’rit milah (although I know of two uncut Jews who are friends, it’s kept hush though generally) but if already cut you can either get a doctor’s note or do the hafatat dam b’rit process which is what I opted for without question. I’m Reform in ideology and conservative in practice.
if you’re converting to Orthodox, then that’s already a huge effort to do it as the process is long and involved and that’s just to start. If you chose Orthodox, then I wouldn’t have thought that circumcision would have been the greatest stumbling block as there’s far bigger things ideologically to get around and other practices which are less appealing - well from my perspective anyway.
if you’re doing Masorti, then like Orthodox it’s a non negotiable and it’ll just have to happen. In both cases it waits fairly late, I know a guy converting to Orthodox Judaism and he is in year 5 of 7, he’s not getting circumcised for at least 18-24 months yet, it comes at the end when you get your Hebrew name.
if Liberal, and you’re at the start of the process, you’ll learn more as you go along but circumcision is not required, as the Liberal view of halachah is very different (ie, don’t really follow it). So you could decide later on you don’t want to do it, or one day decide you do. I know several uncuts Liberals.
The labels Reform and Conservative mean very different things in the UK to the US, they’re part of the same “progressive family” of Judaism but Reform in the US (and in Israel) is much closer to that of Liberal in Britain. Reform in the UK has it’s roots in the argument between Bevis Marks and my synagogue West London.
Anyway, back to the topic and this is LPSG , you may find as you progress your understanding of what circumcision means changes both through study, the community and going through several Torah cycles. The whole Torah tells you why each of the mitzvot individually are important, if you’re converting for your own sake and for religious reasons rather than cultural, then understanding of the value of the convenant (especially in a non- Liberal perspective) will come to mean a lot more than you initially think. The covenant is a two way deal with God, totally non negotiable on either side, if you want to be a member of the tribe then you have to accept the Covenant. Sorry if that sounds hard, but that’s clearly what the score is from the outset. A degree of anxiety about circumcision is perhaps normal - I’m sorry, I’ve just never experienced it personally but that’s just due to my own circumstances, which I think is tied into the whole Jewish thing from the start - but the reason for it comes to override everything else.
A lot changes in the course of a couple of years and you can’t predict now what you’ll think then. As b’rit milah doesn’t happen until right toward the end, and you may find that your awareness and mindset changes before then.
I know you said you’re fine with what circumcision is but worried about standing out. That’s the point I’ve been making... as a Jew, even a progressive one, you’re going to stand out because living a Jewish life isn’t the same as a secular one. I observe Shabbat, there’s a mezuzah on my door, I keep kosher so I don’t eat certain things with even my Jewish friends and am choosy in what I drink. Being Jewish means you’ll have to get used to standing out, both with gentiles and other Jews in the community who have different practices, levels of observance and history. Standing out, like the Covenant, is also part of what you sign up for.
Hope that helps a bit, happy to take the conversation into more depth and more specific in a more private environment like pm, text, email or phone.
L’shalom
I also have a very complicated history with homosexuality, and a very complicated history with Judaism. The latter was severely affected by the former and vice versa. I don’t know where the idea of circumcision came from, I just knew like I just knew I was gay and just knew what my religion is. It’s not for here why and how each of things came to be personally acknowledged and worked out where they fit in my life, but it’s all and always a complicated journey for everyone.
It took me a long time to get around to each of those things, acknowledging them was the first issue, and my appointment with the Beit Din is looming close.
Clearly I don’t need to get circumcised again, I did a pretty thorough job first time around, although in all honesty despite all I’ve just said I actually would. The more you go through the Jprep process the more you’ll come to understand why circumcision is important. I was lucky as it was never an issue, and actually despite my circumcision history it really isn’t something I think about when in a Jewish environment.
You said you’re in Birmingham, I guess you’re not converting to Reform as there’s no Reform shul there. In Reform, which I am, there is an obligation for b’rit milah (although I know of two uncut Jews who are friends, it’s kept hush though generally) but if already cut you can either get a doctor’s note or do the hafatat dam b’rit process which is what I opted for without question. I’m Reform in ideology and conservative in practice.
if you’re converting to Orthodox, then that’s already a huge effort to do it as the process is long and involved and that’s just to start. If you chose Orthodox, then I wouldn’t have thought that circumcision would have been the greatest stumbling block as there’s far bigger things ideologically to get around and other practices which are less appealing - well from my perspective anyway.
if you’re doing Masorti, then like Orthodox it’s a non negotiable and it’ll just have to happen. In both cases it waits fairly late, I know a guy converting to Orthodox Judaism and he is in year 5 of 7, he’s not getting circumcised for at least 18-24 months yet, it comes at the end when you get your Hebrew name.
if Liberal, and you’re at the start of the process, you’ll learn more as you go along but circumcision is not required, as the Liberal view of halachah is very different (ie, don’t really follow it). So you could decide later on you don’t want to do it, or one day decide you do. I know several uncuts Liberals.
The labels Reform and Conservative mean very different things in the UK to the US, they’re part of the same “progressive family” of Judaism but Reform in the US (and in Israel) is much closer to that of Liberal in Britain. Reform in the UK has it’s roots in the argument between Bevis Marks and my synagogue West London.
Anyway, back to the topic and this is LPSG , you may find as you progress your understanding of what circumcision means changes both through study, the community and going through several Torah cycles. The whole Torah tells you why each of the mitzvot individually are important, if you’re converting for your own sake and for religious reasons rather than cultural, then understanding of the value of the convenant (especially in a non- Liberal perspective) will come to mean a lot more than you initially think. The covenant is a two way deal with God, totally non negotiable on either side, if you want to be a member of the tribe then you have to accept the Covenant. Sorry if that sounds hard, but that’s clearly what the score is from the outset. A degree of anxiety about circumcision is perhaps normal - I’m sorry, I’ve just never experienced it personally but that’s just due to my own circumstances, which I think is tied into the whole Jewish thing from the start - but the reason for it comes to override everything else.
A lot changes in the course of a couple of years and you can’t predict now what you’ll think then. As b’rit milah doesn’t happen until right toward the end, and you may find that your awareness and mindset changes before then.
I know you said you’re fine with what circumcision is but worried about standing out. That’s the point I’ve been making... as a Jew, even a progressive one, you’re going to stand out because living a Jewish life isn’t the same as a secular one. I observe Shabbat, there’s a mezuzah on my door, I keep kosher so I don’t eat certain things with even my Jewish friends and am choosy in what I drink. Being Jewish means you’ll have to get used to standing out, both with gentiles and other Jews in the community who have different practices, levels of observance and history. Standing out, like the Covenant, is also part of what you sign up for.
Hope that helps a bit, happy to take the conversation into more depth and more specific in a more private environment like pm, text, email or phone.
L’shalom
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@Maryland36 no offence taken. I believe my frenulum was pretty much completely removed, since I specifically asked for it to be done and the incision was quite extensive - I even had sutures on the ventral side of my glans going up to the meatus. The sensation I feel is very similar because I never found my frenulum specifically to be that sensitive. Rather, it seemed like the area around the frenulum was a major pleasure point for me and the frenulum merely acted as a numb string pulling on those nerve endings. The annoying thing about it was that mine was on the shorter side - not full blown frenulum breve, but enough for it to get quite stretched during sex, which sometimes led to stinging pain in the area. As such, I was adamant that the frenulum had to go.
Removing it exposed more of those pleasure points for me in and around where the frenulum used to be, which feels really nice now. I also like the sensation of the tightness I feel in the area when hard. As a grower circumcised tightly now, the skin is taut on my penis when hard and on the inner stroke it uniformly pulls on what is left of my inner foreskin which feels really good and is a major orgasm trigger for me. More of this pleasure seems concentrated around the underside of my penis and feels incredibly similar to what stimulating my ridged band felt like beforehand - which has me thinking that perhaps many of the nerve endings in my inner skin were spared, or rewired themselves in a very similar fashion to what I used to have.
Compared to my inner skin, the glans isn’t that sensitive, except maybe for the corona and meatus. It feels good, but it isn’t enough to trigger an orgasm unless I stimulate it for longer periods of times with plenty of lube. I wouldn’t put this down to keratinisation or desensitisation - been cut for 4.5 years now and I haven’t noticed any change in sensation over this timeframe. But then again, my glans wasn’t super sensitive beforehand either. If left alone, my foreskin could end up anywhere between full coverage and having the glans exposed except for the corona, depending on what underwear I wore and how my penis shifted during the day with spontaneous erections. I would also normally fully retract when peeing and normally not bother to roll my foreskin back down over the glans before pulling my briefs or boxer briefs back up, hence leaving the glans exposed in my underwear until the foreskin eventually found a middle ground somewhere over my glans. In short, I was no stranger to having a bare glans on a regular basis, so the change wasn’t that significant for me.
Bottom line, your mileage might vary. We may be wired differently, there are many different ways of performing a circumcision so the outcome is not necessarily the same. What I do take issue with is your claim that removing the frenulum kills off ALL sensation. That simply can’t be true. You might lose some, gain some, or feel the same, but it can’t possible be ALL sensation.
Removing it exposed more of those pleasure points for me in and around where the frenulum used to be, which feels really nice now. I also like the sensation of the tightness I feel in the area when hard. As a grower circumcised tightly now, the skin is taut on my penis when hard and on the inner stroke it uniformly pulls on what is left of my inner foreskin which feels really good and is a major orgasm trigger for me. More of this pleasure seems concentrated around the underside of my penis and feels incredibly similar to what stimulating my ridged band felt like beforehand - which has me thinking that perhaps many of the nerve endings in my inner skin were spared, or rewired themselves in a very similar fashion to what I used to have.
Compared to my inner skin, the glans isn’t that sensitive, except maybe for the corona and meatus. It feels good, but it isn’t enough to trigger an orgasm unless I stimulate it for longer periods of times with plenty of lube. I wouldn’t put this down to keratinisation or desensitisation - been cut for 4.5 years now and I haven’t noticed any change in sensation over this timeframe. But then again, my glans wasn’t super sensitive beforehand either. If left alone, my foreskin could end up anywhere between full coverage and having the glans exposed except for the corona, depending on what underwear I wore and how my penis shifted during the day with spontaneous erections. I would also normally fully retract when peeing and normally not bother to roll my foreskin back down over the glans before pulling my briefs or boxer briefs back up, hence leaving the glans exposed in my underwear until the foreskin eventually found a middle ground somewhere over my glans. In short, I was no stranger to having a bare glans on a regular basis, so the change wasn’t that significant for me.
Bottom line, your mileage might vary. We may be wired differently, there are many different ways of performing a circumcision so the outcome is not necessarily the same. What I do take issue with is your claim that removing the frenulum kills off ALL sensation. That simply can’t be true. You might lose some, gain some, or feel the same, but it can’t possible be ALL sensation.
Sorry if that's what it sounded like I was saying. I agree, frenulum removal doesn't remove all sensation. If it did, those men wouldn't be able to orgasm at all.
I was circumcised in 2015, with the frenulum left. My frenulum had little interesting sensation and it looked untidy, so I had it removed about year ago. It's interesting to compare: it now feels more sensitive in that area than before and feels amazing when stimulated. I guess it just shows how different we all are!
I can't imagine choosing to get circumcised. Personally I am trying to restore my foreskin but even then I won't have anything close to what a real foreskin is supposed to be like. There is a large and growing community of men in the US that are on the same path as me, they got cut as infants without consent and many of us are resentful of this. Circumcision removes many erotically sensitive structures in the foreskin and leaves what is left to dry up and desensitize. You may not notice it for the first decade but this slow process eventually leads to an estimated 80% loss of sensitivity. Orgasms you experience now with a naturally intact foreskin will be incomparably more pleasurable than what you'll experience in the future. Not only will this loss of sensitivity be profound, you will be put at much higher risk for ED later in life. The foreskin is a beautiful natural part of the male reproductive system providing protection, lubrication, sensation, and many other benefits that you should strongly consider before undergoing this surgical procedure. Many men, including myself would die to have a foreskin like you. If God really wanted you to not have a foreskin, he wouldn't have given you one in the first place.
The point here is that God made man and women in God’s own image, but (and this bit is controversial in progressive Judaism circles) is that women were made inherently more perfect in every way but man was yet to be finished. Circumcision is the physical mark of the Covenant with God, that circumcision is the final touch which makes man perfect. That’s a brief summary without passing my own personal opinion, I know some folks will see this as a bizarre and contrary to your view on circumcision, which is totally valid and understandable.
Ultimately it is your choice. But considering how drastic and harmful the consequences of circumcision can be I wouldn't recommend ascribing to such a philosophy that urges for the amputation of such an important reproductive organ. On the other hand, why should it matter if you are or are not circumcised? If God supposedly made you imperfect it shouldn't matter whether or not you have a part of your body cut off. I'm sure he'll understand either way. What is known, however, is you are permanently mutilating the most intimate part of your body. If you are not satisfied with the result or something goes wrong there's nothing you can do, the thousands of nerves and blood vessels and sensory tissue are gone forever. There is no turning back and it's not something to take lightly. No respectable religion would ask that of anyone in my opinion. There shouldn't be this much of an issue with keeping a part of your body that you were born with. The foreskin provides so many benefits to you, the idea that it makes you imperfect astounds me honestly when I think in reality quite the opposite is true.
^ There is NOTHING harmful about circumcision. Pure internet snake oil.
There are facts about circumcision—but you won’t find them easily on the Internet. Parents looking for straightforward evidence about benefits and risks are less likely to stumble across the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention than Intact America, which confronts viewers with a screaming, bloodied infant and demands that hospitals “stop experimenting on baby boys.” Just a quick Google search away lies the Circumcision Complex, a website that speculates that circumcision leads to Oedipus and castration complexes, to say nothing of the practice’s alleged brutal physiological harms. If you do locate the rare rational and informed circumcision article, you’ll be assaulted by a vitriolic mob of commenters accusing the author of encouraging “genital mutilation.”
How Circumcision Broke the Internet
A fringe group is drowning out any discussion of facts.
How Circumcision Broke the Internet
A fringe group is drowning out any discussion of facts.
I think if it’s something you wanna do then absolutely go for it. Make sure it’s nice and low and tight 
I'm trying to remain objective about this but with all of the nerves and structures the foreskin has (such as the ridged band and frenulum), how does cutting it off have supposedly no impact on sensation/experience? I know personally the frenulum I was fortunate to have left is literally the most erotically sensitive part of my body and I can't imagine how removing that wouldn't completely ruin the sexual experience for me. Many uncut men I've been with don't even realize that the foreskin is where most of their sensations are coming from, I often have to show them for them to realize. Of course everyone is different but how is removing any part of the body that serves a function a good thing?
I'm curious how those studies are conducted to make such overarching claims about this procedure. Of course men who have been cut from birth wouldn't know any better and men who have recently been cut haven't undergone the process of desensitization that leads to reduced sensation. I say all of this from my personal experience and logical conclusions, I am by no means a medical professional and while I don't recommend circumcision, I think it should be up to the individual. The main reason I am so against routine infant circumcision is purely the fact that they don't get a choice, babies can't possibly give consent on anything let alone having a part of their body amputated.
I have a question for you. Why are you converting to Judaism? What is it about Judaism that attracts? Is it for their beliefs or is it to appease your mate, or what? If it is the latter and you later part ways, will you continue to be a Jew? You will continue to be circumcised anyway.
There is no evidence at all this is the case. Post-circumcision patients do not describe any loss of pleasure. The foreskin is not some sexual talisman that makes pleasure without it impossible. If so much was lost you would think you'd have some substantial set of patients willing to step forward screaming don't do it.
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