I wanted an unfiltered glimpse into the male sexual psyche...

[TryHarrd]

I think overriding biological needs with social customs is always bound to fail. My wife and I are very academic but she knows I'm a man and with that comes a sexual drive evolutionarily developed. Not my fault, it comes with the hardware. However, I also must have complete respect for my wife which means never compromising her dignity. So the dilema - if I have to look outside of marriage because of differences in sexual needs, do I,
1) Talk about it?
2) Do it behind her back?

(1) If I talk about it, I make the problem real - and it can never be taken back. My wife will feel both shame and pressure that she can't satify me and I'm even considering having sex with someone else. The conversation could end well in an understanding, but it can also add weight to an already stressed relationship and end it.

(2) Done with the right amount of discretion, my wife will never know. Her dignity is intact and she does not feel the shame and pressure of letting her partner down. Of couse, the risk is if the cheating is ever found out, the results are generally even worse.

Believe it or not, cultures that normalise sex outside of marriage go for (2). The man goes outside the marriage, the wife turns a blind eye, and the husband never embarrasses her. If he does, then he's not allowed to do it again. So the male psych to me is easy to understand - it's the women's that is really interesting. Their reaction to cheating is as much social as it is emotional.

 

[deleted19151801]

So the dilema - if I have to look outside of marriage because of differences in sexual needs, do I,
1) Talk about it?
2) Do it behind her back?

This seems like common sense, but ok.

You choose option 1) Talk about it. Give her the opportunity to hear you out and either agree to an open marriage or leave. I, personally, would just leave you and let you be free to do whatever and whomever you want without having to deal with that mess. But some people are different and willing to agree to an open relationship. I am not one of these people.

Her dignity is intact and she does not feel the shame and pressure of letting her partner down.

Her dignity is actually very not in tact because you would be making a fool of her by lying and cheating behind her back. Would you consider your dignity to be in tact if the shoe was on the other foot and she was getting piped down by some other man on the side behind your back? Better yet, if you're of reproductive age, would your "dignity be in tact" if an extramarital affair on her end resulted in a pregnancy and you were deceived into raising and financially supporting some other man's child? Call me crazy, but that's rather humiliating especially when everyone else but you knows.

Their reaction to cheating is as much social as it is emotional.

I don't know, sir, the male reaction to cheating tends to end in violence. Just saying.

 

[TryHarrd]

This seems like common sense, but ok.

You choose option 1) Talk about it. Give her the opportunity to hear you out and either agree to an open marriage or leave. I, personally, would just leave you and let you be free to do whatever and whomever you want without having to deal with that mess. But some people are different and willing to agree to an open relationship. I am not one of these people.



Her dignity is actually very not in tact because you would be making a fool of her by lying and cheating behind her back. Would you consider your dignity to be in tact if the shoe was on the other foot and she was getting piped down by some other man on the side behind your back? Better yet, if you're of reproductive age, would your "dignity be in tact" if an extramarital affair on her end resulted in a pregnancy and you were deceived into raising and financially supporting some other man's child? Call me crazy, but that's rather humiliating especially when everyone else but you knows.



I don't know, sir, the male reaction to cheating tends to end in violence. Just saying.

Nice balanced reply. The trouble is my wife needs me as much as I need her, and leaving each other would be tragic for so other important aspects of our lives aside from sex.

 

[deleted19151801]

Nice balanced reply. The trouble is my wife needs me as much as I need her, and leaving each other would be tragic for so other important aspects of our lives aside from sex.

Then if you don't want to leave, the sensible option is to still have that conversation.

I won't claim to understand the mindset of someone who claims to "love and need" someone but still wishes to seek sex outside of the relationship, but it stands to reason that if sex is, in fact, that large of a concern where the idea even crosses one's mind to step outside one's relationship, an honest conversation needs to be had with your partner.

If the other person is not willing to compromise, then you leave them or stay, remain faithful, and self-stimulate. I don't understand what is so difficult about just masturbating if sexual release is needed. Then again, I personally prefer masturbation to sex with another person and am, more or less, auto-sexual as people do not sexually arouse me, at all. But even with that, why not just masturbate for that release? Why does it need to be a whole other person involved? You get the same endorphin release and pleasure via masturbation, maybe even better since you know your "spots" better than anyone else. I genuinely do not understand this need to involve another person in the first place.

 

[TryHarrd]

Then if you don't want to leave, the sensible option is to still have that conversation.

I won't claim to understand the mindset of someone who claims to "love and need" someone but still wishes to seek sex outside of the relationship, but it stands to reason that if sex is, in fact, that large of a concern where the idea even crosses one's mind to step outside one's relationship, an honest conversation needs to be had with your partner.

If the other person is not willing to compromise, then you leave them or stay, remain faithful, and self-stimulate. I don't understand what is so difficult about just masturbating if sexual release is needed. Then again, I personally prefer masturbation to sex with another person and am, more or less, auto-sexual as people do not sexually arouse me, at all. But even with that, why not just masturbate for that release? Why does it need to be a whole other person involved? You get the same endorphin release and pleasure via masturbation, maybe even better since you know your "spots" better than anyone else. I genuinely do not understand this need to involve another person in the first place.

Cool again. My take is it's just bloody sex, not intimacy, and as a culture we are far too hung up on it's importance. I know single mums who struggle just to get by and am sure would occassionally like a reliable lay instead of playing the Tinder lotto and so there is even an aspect of being able to help others. For me the point of contention is when sex become intimate - that's cheating in my eyes.

 

[TryHarrd]

Cool again. My take is it's just bloody sex, not intimacy, and as a culture we are far too hung up on it's importance. I know single mums who struggle just to get by and am sure would occassionally like a reliable lay instead of playing the Tinder lotto and so there is even an aspect of being able to help others. For me the point of contention is when sex become intimate - that's cheating in my eyes.

And on an aside, I also believe things like massages and friendships can become intimate just as much as sex.

 

[deleted19151801]

Cool again. My take is it's just bloody sex, not intimacy, and as a culture we are far too hung up on it's importance. I know single mums who struggle just to get by and am sure would occassionally like a reliable lay instead of playing the Tinder lotto and so there is even an aspect of being able to help others. For me the point of contention is when sex become intimate - that's cheating in my eyes.

If sex is so low value, then why would you be willing to risk your marriage over it? If you view sex as low value but are willing to go behind your spouse's back to get it, that sounds like you put your marriage (and by extension your spouse) at an even lower value than sex.

And, frankly, it's not just sex. There are dire consequences that can occur for multiple parties.

Exhibit A:

ETA:

By the way, in most states in the United States (can't speak for other countries) any child that is born within a marriage is automatically assumed to be the child of the husband. So, even if that marriage ends in a divorce and he finds out that the child isn't his (his wife cheated) he is still on the hook for child support because the baby was born while he was married to the mother, and his name automatically goes on the birth certificate.

But, yeah..."it's just bloody sex." Indeed.

 

[TryHarrd]

If sex is so low value, then why would you be willing to risk your marriage over it? If you view sex as low value but are willing to go behind your spouse's back to get it, that sounds like you put your marriage (and by extension your spouse) at an even lower value than sex.

And, frankly, it's not just sex. There are dire consequences that can occur for multiple parties.

Exhibit A:

ETA:

By the way, in most states in the United States (can't speak for other countries) any child that is born within a marriage is automatically assumed to be the child of the husband. So, even if that marriage ends in a divorce and he finds out that the child isn't his (his wife cheated) he is still on the hook for child support because the baby was born while he was married to the mother, and his name automatically goes on the birth certificate.

But, yeah..."it's just bloody sex." Indeed.

Enjoying the conversation. Having children outside wedlock is another matter entirely and I'd assume anyone having sex outside marriage would make sure they use protection. I had the op years ago and shoot blanks so no risk there.
And what you are saying is simply your value judgement. I place respect for my wife as #1, intimacy with my wife #2, marriage with my wife #3 and sex with my wife #4. Being so black and white about the matter ignores lots of other things that are more important than sex - quite frankly my wife would be an idiot to leave me over having sex, without intimacy, with another woman. I'm successful, a doting husband, spend heaps of time with our kids, intelligent, funny, physically fit and healthy, and my business means my wife can pretty much do any work she wants (she'll always work). Would you still leave in this situation?

 

[deleted19151801]

quite frankly my wife would be an idiot to leave me over having sex, without intimacy, with another woman.

Well, you certainly think highly of yourself, don't you?

I don't know how it works in your neck of the woods, but I'm just going to keep it real, here. Here in the States, the only objective idiot, in this situation would be the man for stepping outside of his marriage considering how utterly destroyed men get in divorce and family court in this country. Most women would take their husbands to the cleaners and reduce him to pauper levels after the case was finalized.

On the flip side, if it's the wife cheating and she ends up having some other man's baby, the husband is still a rather "unfortunate idiot" for leaving her because he would be on the hook for child support for a baby that isn't even his and any other children they share and possibly still have to pay her alimony while she runs off into the open arms of the man she was cheating on him with.

Quite frankly, men have more to lose when they cheat in a marriage. Yet and still, many of them do anyway because they're that weak and dumb. So, if anyone is stupid, here, it's the cheating, and soon to be borderline destitute, man.

 

[deleted19151801]

I'm successful, a doting husband, spend heaps of time with our kids, intelligent, funny, physically fit and healthy, and my business means my wife can pretty much do any work she wants (she'll always work). Would you still leave in this situation?

If cheated on? Yes. With a quickness. And I would make sure I got half of everything financially, the entire house (enjoy your apartment), on top of the monthly child support payments you would owe. I would also regret nothing.

 

[TryHarrd]

If cheated on? Yes. With a quickness. And I would make sure I got half of everything financially, the entire house (enjoy your apartment), on top of the monthly child support payments you would owe. I would also regret nothing.

Little bit of wearing rose coloured glasses I think. If my wife left me and got the kids, then she would take half the assets and get alimony. But she doesn't get half the business, and given it is skilled based, has no assets itself. So it is only a matter of time before she is working in a job she hates, exhausted from the kids, with no time on her hands at all, thinking "it was just sex..." And I'm living the high life. How does she win there?

 

[LaFemme]

I get pretty tired of men who blame their cheating/desire to cheat on their evolutionary developed sexual drive. Do men not have brains, too? Brains that may have developed from dick-hard-must-fuck empty headed drivel. That thought process reduces men to un-evolved cretins. There must have been some progress.

Unless I’ve made an agreement with my partner that having outside partners is fine, then should he cheat, I’m taking him to the cleaners. I’m going to hire the most cutthroat lawyer I can find, and I am going to finish him. (Geez, is that due to my evolutionary drive to gather? Maybe, cuz I’d gather it all.)

You think you’re a catch. All that and a bag of Lays. Isn’t she lucky! And you’re so thoughtful to hide any extramarital sex from her. So stupid. Being cheated on hurts. It is humiliating. No one feels like their dignity was protected by being lied to by someone who is supposed to love them.

Need a bit of strange? Use your other hand when you jerk off. Pretend you have some self control.

 

[TryHarrd]

I get pretty tired of men who blame their cheating/desire to cheat on their evolutionary developed sexual drive. Do men not have brains, too? Brains that may have developed from dick-hard-must-fuck empty headed drivel. That thought process reduces men to un-evolved cretins. There must have been some progress.

Unless I’ve made an agreement with my partner that having outside partners is fine, then should he cheat, I’m taking him to the cleaners. I’m going to hire the most cutthroat lawyer I can find, and I am going to finish him. (Geez, is that due to my evolutionary drive to gather? Maybe, cuz I’d gather it all.)

You think you’re a catch. All that and a bag of Lays. Isn’t she lucky! And you’re so thoughtful to hide any extramarital sex from her. So stupid. Being cheated on hurts. It is humiliating. No one feels like their dignity was protected by being lied to by someone who is supposed to love them.

Need a bit of strange? Use your other hand when you jerk off. Pretend you have some self control.

Women's evolutionarily drive is protection, and heaven help anyone who ever threatens someone a woman deeply loves. Men have nothing like this rage and women were once allowed to release this instinct in ceremonies where animals would be ripped apart in frenzies. The one sided arguments offered and the 'take him to the cleaners' comment is all evidence of this instinct, which I accept and respect as a man. So as a woman, you should accept and respect my primal urges too. Treating men with the same expectations as women will just fail - again it is trying to override evolutionary instincts with social practices.

 

[deleted19151801]

But she doesn't get half the business, and given it is skilled based, has no assets itself.

I'm not trying to be funny, but this is the type of Polly Anna thinking that puts most men in "fuck around and find out" situations when their wives hire the "fuck around and find out" lawyer.

By all means, continue believing that your wife would be the one who would receive the financial short end of the stick in family court. There is a reason toxic movements such as the red pill and MGTOW began; a lot of men are getting fucked even when they're the ones being cheated on and honoring their vows. Just imagine the treatment a man gets when he is the one in the wrong. Sir, I am hardly the one wearing rose-colored glasses, here.

A rather comedic Exhibit B:

 

[TryHarrd]

If my wife had needs I couldn't satisfy, I would be open to a discussion and to go outside my comfort zone in order to help her. Marriage is all about sacrifice. And not being Polly Anna I thought, just pointing out it's not as simple as 'if he wants sex outside of marriage, I'll leave him.'

 

[LaFemme]

Women's evolutionarily drive is protection, and heaven help anyone who ever threatens someone a woman deeply loves. Men have nothing like this rage and women were once allowed to release this instinct in ceremonies where animals would be ripped apart in frenzies. The one sided arguments offered and the 'take him to the cleaners' comment is all evidence of this instinct, which I accept and respect as a man. So as a woman, you should accept and respect my primal urges too. Treating men with the same expectations as women will just fail - again it is trying to override evolutionary instincts with social practices.

Um, nope. There are so many things wrong with this little lecture that I was actually rendered momentarily speechless. I think I’ll stay that way and let readers come to their own conclusions.

 

[TryHarrd]

Um, nope. There are so many things wrong with this little lecture that I was actually rendered momentarily speechless. I think I’ll stay that way and let readers come to their own conclusions.

I'll take that as compliment. Love seeing someone hearing something for the first time. If you don't think I'm right, you've never seen a women's kids threatened. If you think men and women are hormonally and biologically the same, you're fighting against scientific research. If you think you have free will away from your biology, you're fighting against science again. I accept that we're messy animals with flawed psychology that was never intended to be used aside from living in trees and procreating. I think you're expectations are too high and you expect others to be perfect. That's Polly Anna.

 

[deleted19151801]

If my wife had needs I couldn't satisfy, I would be open to a discussion and to go outside my comfort zone in order to help her. Marriage is all about sacrifice. And not being Polly Anna I thought, just pointing out it's not as simple as 'if he wants sex outside of marriage, I'll leave him.'

I think this is the first time I've ever seen a man who sincerely believes that it's not, generally, very easy for wives (and at times more beneficial) to leave their husbands. Statistically, women initiate most divorces and it is no secret that men traditionally lose more in divorce and family court. Even still, there are men who are unfaithful and end up playing themselves in the end.

Perhaps you are right. Maybe these men are too controlled by their primal urges and less neurologically evolved than other men who have the ability to remain faithful to their partners and keep it in their pants. Perhaps these men have an underdeveloped prefrontal cortex and the subsequent dulled executive function that results from such an ailment. Who knows? All I know is that cheaters, be they men or women, are dumb. Full stop.

But due to how the judicial and family court system is built in Western society to have an implicit male bias which typically results in harsher consequences for men, if we're drawing comparisons between the sexes, men who cheat are, by all accounts, dumber as they have far more to lose.

 

[TryHarrd]

My last two cents (maybe). I struggle with my biological urges driven by my evolutionary need to procreate. I am horny multiple times a day, while my wife is lucky to feel like sex once a week, so it's not an understatement to say my sex drive is 15-20 times hers. I lust after women I know and all without intent. I can't complain too much though because it is the success of thousands of generations of men before me in procreating that I'm here at all.

But you ladies must also understand you are a slave to your evolution as well. This conversation insults your sense of home because making and maintaining a successful home is what thousands of generations of women have done before you, and you being here is testament to their success. That gut feeling you have that cheating is fucked comes from here, not from some well developed argument. Men have it to a degree, but us being here didn't depend on it so we don't feel it so strongly.

In all my reading I have not found a single strong moral argument against sex outside of marriage. The reason why is in ethics everyone's interests must be respected which means a wife has to do something about their husband's sexual needs if they outweigh hers. They cannot just do nothing or stonewall them as this act itself is immoral.

For the record, I've never had sex outside of marriage but my wife and I have discussed it. She is a country girl so grew up with animals fucking all around her so she doesn't hold sex as sacrosanct. Her greatest concern, and the reason she is insulted, is not because I may physically fuck another woman, bring them to climax like she's never experienced, or them being me to climax like I've never experienced, but that I would risk developing an emotional bond with someone else. And this emotional bond that would threaten our home.

So in conclusion ladies, I wouldn't be too quick to judge as your argument could cause a lot of resentment in a relationship as you seem to be ignoring the needs of your partner. Just have a wank doesn't cut it. As I've said earlier, my wife must respect my sexual urges and I must respect her need to keep a safe and stable home - and the solution lies somewhere in the middle.

 

[TryHarrd]

My last two cents (maybe). I struggle with my biological urges driven by my evolutionary need to procreate. I am horny multiple times a day, while my wife is lucky to feel like sex once a week, so it's not an understatement to say my sex drive is 15-20 times hers. I lust after women I know and all without intent. I can't complain too much though because it is the success of thousands of generations of men before me in procreating that I'm here at all.

But you ladies must also understand you are a slave to your evolution as well. This conversation insults your sense of home because making and maintaining a successful home is what thousands of generations of women have done before you, and you being here is testament to their success. That gut feeling you have that cheating is fucked comes from here, not from some well developed argument. Men have it to a degree, but us being here didn't depend on it so we don't feel it so strongly.

In all my reading I have not found a single strong moral argument against sex outside of marriage. The reason why is in ethics everyone's interests must be respected which means a wife has to do something about their husband's sexual needs if they outweigh hers. They cannot just do nothing or stonewall them as this act itself is immoral.

For the record, I've never had sex outside of marriage but my wife and I have discussed it. She is a country girl so grew up with animals fucking all around her so she doesn't hold sex as sacrosanct. Her greatest concern, and the reason she is insulted, is not because I may physically fuck another woman, bring them to climax like she's never experienced, or them being me to climax like I've never experienced, but that I would risk developing an emotional bond with someone else. And this emotional bond that would threaten our home.

So in conclusion ladies, I wouldn't be too quick to judge as your argument could cause a lot of resentment in a relationship as you seem to be ignoring the needs of your partner. Just have a wank doesn't cut it. As I've said earlier, my wife must respect my sexual urges and I must respect her need to keep a safe and stable home - and the solution lies somewhere in the middle.

Lol..ran out of time to edit. Meant to say "not found a single strong moral argument not completely condoning sex outside of marriage...". It's always an option.