Marriage - Still Relevant?

Lol there's a low key joke in that about how only women get stuff in marriage, we give away "r"s and our last names:D:joy:

But my wife was on that track too...all about changing the last name..when the only last names I was concerned about was children's. I wouldn't characterize any man that changed his last name as "weak" per se, but it's not a lane I ever would consider.

As a side note, a positive development in German speaking countries is "Herr" and "Frau" are equal. i.e. independent of marital status. Though it's a bit weird that if you have a doctorate, you'd call yourself "Herr Doktor" or "Frau Doktor" here, don't really understand why you'd need the "Herr" or "Frau" bit, as the "Dr." bit is way more important than either.
 
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I dont think it was ever stolen, I think it was more of a given from the female to assure paternity in lieu of no surety being historically available. Which is why typically there is much less empasis on step children's names being realigned.
Im not doubting some sexist shit has gone on with it, but I dont think the practice of naming children for the father is a specifically sexist one, just one borne of necessity.

Mothers and Fathers are registered when the baby is born. Birth records. A name doesn’t assure paternity. It’s simple sexist control. All he did was not wear a condom.
 
Mothers and Fathers are registered when the baby is born. Birth records. A name doesn’t assure paternity. It’s simple sexist control. All he did was not wear a condom.
But no one is registered when a baby is conceived...I dont know if you're being willfully obtuse or not to simply ignore that a long standing tendency, and relationship/mating strategy for women throughout history(and Im not even attributing malevolent intent behind it) is that the man who is best suited to impregnate them isnt always the best man suited to be in a stable relationship/ co parenting situation. So interesting you hop upon the sexist control exerted by men having their children share their last names, completely precluding the sexist control many women exploit by having a man care for and raise a child they did not create, unknowingly.
 
All Im saying is if paternity was something that could be determined with certainty like others in the animal kingdom last names probably would be much less of an issue than say, infanticide.
 
But no one is registered when a baby is conceived...I dont know if you're being willfully obtuse or not to simply ignore that a long standing tendency, and relationship/mating strategy for women throughout history(and Im not even attributing malevolent intent behind it) is that the man who is best suited to impregnate them isnt always the best man suited to be in a stable relationship/ co parenting situation. So interesting you hop upon the sexist control exerted by men having their children share their last names, completely precluding the sexist control many women exploit by having a man care for and raise a child they did not create, unknowingly.
There isn’t a child to name upon conception?

You were fully with me with the sexism until I mentioned something that you have done. You said it was the only thing that’s important. You also said that you wouldn’t change your name.

I’m very confused regarding being wilfully obtuse. My whole point was the bred sexism due to history.... due to “how it’s always been”. Marriage was a transaction and women traded for cattle. Even now we have dowries and fathers paying for the wedding. Ugh I’m rambling again. I’ve got a cold and I was dumped yesterday so I’m all over the place.
 
There isn’t a child to name upon conception?

You were fully with me with the sexism until I mentioned something that you have done. You said it was the only thing that’s important. You also said that you wouldn’t change your name.

I’m very confused regarding being wilfully obtuse. My whole point was the bred sexism due to history.... due to “how it’s always been”. Marriage was a transaction and women traded for cattle. Even now we have dowries and fathers paying for the wedding. Ugh I’m rambling again. I’ve got a cold and I was dumped yesterday so I’m all over the place.
I wouldn't change my name, nor do I expect anyone else to, but I do think I have the right as half creator and purported caretaker of a child to have some say in their naming, whether it be some combination of mine and mothers or mine alone, I give my step daughter her choice.

The willfully obtuse part comes from what seems to be your inability to ascribe any tenets of marriage or child rearing pairing to existent realities of the time; no centralized records keeping, no paternity tests and the like.
 
I wouldn't change my name, nor do I expect anyone else to, but I do think I have the right as half creator and purported caretaker of a child to have some say in their naming, whether it be some combination of mine and mothers or mine alone, I give my step daughter her choice.

The willfully obtuse part comes from what seems to be your inability to ascribe any tenets of marriage or child rearing pairing to existent realities of the time; no centralized records keeping, no paternity tests and the like.
Child rearing through time... the mother stays at home with the child and raises them whilst the father works.
 
Child rearing through time... the mother stays at home with the child and raises them whilst the father works.
Exactly, given that expectation how then to you motivate a man to increase his earnings or divide his resources to care for a being he may or may not be responsible for? In a time before modern medicine and records, the baby coming from her body, typically clinging to her only the first few yrs what then is his onus to have any responsibility in that child's upbringing?
 
I do think religion has contributed to the shaming of non paired sexual behaviors, but I think its origins run much deeper and closer to social realities...beyond what any sort of "God" would say about it there are specific, privilege and advantage seeking reasons, probably formed in our primate-to-hominid prehistory, why either gender would have an issue with the other engaging in sexual activity outside of their particular pairing.

I can't argue with the reality of what religious socialization has done to women and men. It's been entrenched worldwide for millennia. Despite the advantages it gives its influence is still sexist limiting both women and men to specific roles. It is changing slowly but unlikely to end soon.

It's clear why a male would have an issue with a female mate having sex outside their pair bond: he doesn't want to raise another male's offspring and he doesn't want to lose his pair bond with her to another male (or female).

It's clear why a female would have an issue with a male mate having sex outside their pair bond: she doesn't want him to have offspring with another female and she doesn't want to lose her pair bond with him to another female (or male).

As for our prehistory as hominids what we see in human morphology today are males who are on average 30% larger and stronger than females. This reflects a time in the past where our species didn't form one-on-one pair bonds. Instead we were a tournament species where males had harems of females. Having to fight off all other males selected for the largest and strongest males making them much larger than females.

We see this in other primates today. Gorillas are a tournament species. Males have harems of females--or many wives if you prefer. Because they have to fight for this male gorillas have much larger and stronger bodies than females. On average 5% or less of tournament species males pass their DNA along.

On the other hand female and male chimps are the same size. While they don't form one-on-one pair bonds the males aren't forced to fight to mate. When a female chimp goes into estrus all the males in the troop mate with her. No one knows who the father is but it doesn't matter because they all live together and support each other as a troop. Everyone gets the chance to pass their DNA along.

In evolutionary terms our species is stuck somewhere between a tournament species and a pair bond species. We still see plenty of male-on-male violence over females to get a mate and male-on-female violence to maintain a mate. But we also share pair bond adaptations with chimps like specialty sperm which recognizes and fights the sperm of other males. This suggests strongly that sometime in our hominid past males either had harems or that multiple males mated with females or both.

What it means for us today is that humans don't instinctively form one-on-one pair bonds. Thus socialization which ostracizes anything but a lifetime heteronormative pair bond rules the vast majority of human cultures. There are polygamous exceptions of polyandry and polygyny but they are relatively rare as is the groupie phenomenon of large numbers of females selecting and bedding a few high status males.
 
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What it means for us today is that humans don't instinctively form one-on-one pair bonds.
This is where I disagree..I think a combination of intelligence and sentience is how we seem to gravitate towards pair bonds, so much so it exists as the predominant construct of relationships of all sexualities...but I agree in that this instinct is in conflict with our other instincts that have to do with mate choice..
I think our relationship mating strategy reflects our general attitude of life: we all want the ability to be able to roam far and wide if we so choose, but would prefer to have a home to come back to.
 
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It's clear why a male would have an issue with a female mate having sex outside their pair bond: he doesn't want to raise another male's offspring and he doesn't want to lose his pair bond with her to another male (or female).

It's clear why a female would have an issue with a male mate having sex outside their pair bond: she doesn't want him to have offspring with another female and she doesn't want to lose her pair bond with him to another female (or male).
I also don't think these premises are as clear cut as you make them to be. Ive heard far too many complaints from poly women about their men having no issue with her taking female partners but being opposed to male ones, and many instances of cheating men have had no intention of losing their pair bond with their exisiting spouse.

There are more selfish machinations at work on either end and I think we need to stop euphemistically trying to not broach uncomfortable truths.
 
This is where I disagree..I think a combination of intelligence and sentience is how we seem to gravitate towards pair bonds, so much so it exists as the predominant construct of relationships of all sexualities...but I agree in that this instinct is in conflict with our other instincts that have to do with mate choice..
I think our relationship mating strategy reflects our general attitude of life: we all want the ability to be able to roam far and wide if we so choose, but would prefer to have a home to come back to.

You missed my point--and perhaps I wasn't clear: we don't instinctually form the lifetime one-on-one pair bonds required by religious socialization/indoctrination. If we did the taboo would not be required.

I also don't think these premises are as clear cut as you make them to be. Ive heard far too many complaints from poly women about their men having no issue with her taking female partners but being opposed to male ones, and many instances of cheating men have had no intention of losing their pair bond with their exisiting spouse.

These are prime examples of what I've just described: both pair bond and tournament species behavior in humans!
 
You missed my point--and perhaps I wasn't clear: we don't instinctually form the lifetime one-on-one pair bonds required by religious socialization/indoctrination. If we did the taboo would not be required.
I didn't miss it, I disagree specifically with this point. I think our instinct to pair up predates any religious socialization or indoctrination, I don't think those things became issues until after we were all done with hunting and gathering and were well into the Bronze Age
 
Partnered for almost 42 years now, Hubby and I never thought as Gay men we'd have the opportunity, the RIGHT, to marry. At least in our lifetimes.

Hubby's had a few serious life-threatening medical issues. We are very much economically conjoined. And when the Supreme Court ruling legalized Gay marriage, we chose to marry for a very simple reason--all the protections marriage provided us.

To answer the question: I don't know if marriage is "Still Relevant" for others. But, I do know marriage is relevant for us.
 
I would love to get married. But even now in 2019, I find the whole thing so sexist. The woman is given an engagement ring but the man isn’t. Claiming ownership? To show that the woman is taken? Then there is the marriage - the woman is given away. Really? Oh god and don’t get me started on ASKING the woman’s father for permission - what the hell does it have to do with him?

However. Yes, I believe in marriage and my god I want to find my lobster.
And how the men has to ask. I heard of an actress who asked her male partner to marry her. I think that is so refreshing.
 
With rates of cheating and divorce, you wonder if marriage is s valid today compared to centuries ago. When we were in medieval times and only lived to 25, things were different. Then a few decades ago marriages were husband-centric and the man sort of 'ran' things, and whatever he 'wanted', he got. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying for back to that. Progress in progress and those were dark times. The question is, "is marriage still a valid social construct?"
Whether it's relevant depends on the couple.

What other people think doesn't matter.

Also marriage is very flexible, ceremonies can be updated.

It's not sexist n the slightest. Despite some people trying to suggest that it is.
 
Whether it's relevant depends on the couple.

What other people think doesn't matter.

Also marriage is very flexible, ceremonies can be updated.

It's not sexist n the slightest. Despite some people trying to suggest that it is.
Oh... so arranged marriages don’t exist?
 
They do but are not the totality nor the originator of the idea of marriage. People were exclusively pairing up long before it was commoditized within society
Was I not just provided with a definitive “marriage is not sexist, despite some people (I have a name) trying to suggest it is.”

I have simply advised that it can be and still is in lots of places and situations.