Does Real love in the gay community exist in 2024?

[englad]

Your personal, biased observations do not substitute for objectively collected and analyzed data. You may reject the conclusion, but in doing so, you mark yourself an anti-intellectual. The question is why? No one is attacking homosexual relationships. No one is saying people cannot have homosexual relationships. No one is saying homosexual relationships are inferior to heterosexual relationships. The contention, backed by data, is simply that heterosexual relationships tend to be longer-lasting and more stable than homosexual relationships. Somehow that sticks in your craw -- pardon the pun.

Yes, you are. Well specifically, you're claiming that straight relationships lasting longer on average is a sign of stability. Whereas a lot of them stay together for the wrong reasons, social pressure, and because they don't have exit strategies. In short, I think a lot of their relationships are full of shit.

And there's nothing "anti-intellectual" about my position. You're taking these relationships at face value as if them being together only (without considering
the reasons why) is a sign that the relationship is stable and working. My points scratch under the surface of the sham edifice of many of their relationships whereas your point is a skin deep verbose ideological word salad without any ability to critically think.

 

[FrankieGuile]

Yes, you are. Well specifically, you're claiming that straight relationships lasting longer on average is a sign of stability. Whereas a lot of them stay together for the wrong reasons, social pressure, and because they don't have exit strategies. In short, I think a lot of their relationships are full of shit.

And there's nothing "anti-intellectual" about my position. You're taking these relationships at face value as if them being together only (without considering
the reasons why) is a sign that the relationship is stable and working. My points scratch under the surface of the sham edifice of many of their relationships whereas your point is a skin deep verbose ideological word salad without any ability to critically think.

You said, "working," not me. Again, you have a problem with presumption. I said, studies show that heterosexual relationships are more stable and longer-lasting -- if it mollifies you, you can simply say, "more stable" or "longer-lasting," rather than both. The point remains the same. Furthermore, good reason exists for the stability of heterosexual relationships vis-a-vi homosexual relationships and those reasons can include greater social acceptance, more limited "exit strategies," and better balance between the tendency to wander sexually and need for home and hearth. You clearly do not like the data or their conclusions and implications. I think accepting the same is useful for those in homosexual relationships who want to avoid the inherent pitfalls so they can craft something longer lasting.

 

[FrankieGuile]

I'm not, dear. I just think you're full of shit.

Surely you can do better than that. Your response is a good example of anti-intellectual behavior. Your vituperous reaction, in general, is a better example of a pseudo-intellectual. Elevate your game!

 

[englad]

You said, "working," not me. Again, you have a problem with presumption. I said, studies show that heterosexual relationships are more stable and longer-lasting -- if it mollifies you, you can simply say, "more stable" or "longer-lasting," rather than both. The point remains the same. Furthermore, good reason exists for the stability of heterosexual relationships vis-a-vi homosexual relationships and those reasons can include greater social acceptance, more limited "exit strategies," and better balance between the tendency to wander sexually and need for home and hearth. You clearly do not like the data or their conclusions and implications. I think accepting the same is useful for those in homosexual relationships who want to avoid the inherent pitfalls so they can craft something longer lasting.

I do not give a solitary fuck about the "data" nor would I be able to draw the same conclusions as you because I am not a self-loathing queer.

As far as I'm concerned, the most important quality a relationship can have is being a healthy one, irrespective of how long it lasts. There is no worse relationship situation to be in than a long term toxic one, and from what I've seen of the straight community, that seems to be extremely common with them. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.

 

[englad]

Surely you can do better than that. Your response is a good example of anti-intellectual behavior. Your vituperous reaction, in general, is a better example of a pseudo-intellectual. Elevate your game!

You are the pseudo-intellectual here. You're regurgitating the same skin deep analysis with a hefty ideological slant every single time. I think you have confused which orifice is meant for communicating and which one is meant for defecating.

 

[FrankieGuile]

You are the pseudo-intellectual here. You're regurgitating the same skin deep analysis with a hefty ideological slant every single time. I think you have confused which orifice is meant for communicating and which one is meant for defecating.

At least, I've made a contribution and a point. All you have done is rage and denounce, and all because you cannot suppress a counter to a false narrative you cannot credibly defend. So, I'll make the point again as plainly as possible: studies show that heterosexual relationships are longer-lasting and more stable than homosexual relationships.

 

[englad]

At least, I've made a contribution and a point. All you have done is rage and denounce, and all because you cannot suppress a counter to a false narrative you cannot credibly defend. So, I'll make the point again as plainly as possible: studies show that heterosexual relationships are longer-lasting and more stable than homosexual relationships.

You keep telling yourself that, sweetheart, but you give yourself far too much credit. I can assure you that you are as incapable of making me rage as you are of making a coherent argument. My pulse could not be lower "debating" (it's hard to describe it as such when you make the same point using different synonyms and never rebuff any of my counter points) you unless my heart actually stopped beating. You mistake my vulgarity and directness for aggression whereas it is actually a mixture of a) linguistic seasoning and b) a fun way to push snobs out of their comfort zone. Regarding denunciation, when the ideological slant of your argument is so blatantly dripping in internalised homophobia, I will point it out.

It's just rather a lot of fun to take the piss out of you, and you make it so easy. You fantasise that you are an intellectual whereas you sound like a toddler with a cheap thesaurus regurgitating the same talking point over and over again. It's OK. There's no shame in not being the sharpest knife in the drawer.

 

[tnman]

YOU TWO STOP! Please take it private if you feel the need to continue where this thread can pick up again PLEASE!

 

[CmdrShepard]

Of course they would be. They've had a headstart on the relationship thing and literally everything working in their favor from the beginning of time.

Very interesting view on things. Something I haven't thought about - self correction over time... curious idea.

 

[FrankieGuile]

Do you guys believe that actual monogamous love in the lgbt community actually exists? Our dating pool is big but small cause it’s full of people but half of them are experimenting , dl , in relationships already or not looking to be in a relationship because of the trauma . And the half of the other half grew up with Grindr and stuff and know love from lust . And now our culture is just a lust culture , no shade but onlyfans , this website, twitter and tumblr are all examples of that . I’m starting to think that find your person is not an actual logical thing for a lot of us to believe in cause it probably won’t happen for a lot of us .

It is possible, but the challenges you observe for homosexuals are real. It is unsurprising a male-male sexual relationship could be driven more by lust (as you suggest) than commitment. I don't, however, think that has to do with external influences such as OnlyFans, this website, Twitter or Tumblr, as you suggest. Those sites are only manifestations of what some people are, and do not influence people to be something they are not. Finding "your person" is an "actual logical thing," but it requires a will to be faithful and committed to a person and a resistance to be tempted by lust for others. Doing so is a taller order for men than it is for women which is the reason it is so much more difficult in a male homosexual dynamic than a male-female heterosexual dynamic.

 

[JackifSpades]

You’re missing the point if you allow yourself to be distracted by the details- this isn’t about specifics it’s a concept. Im gonna try to partner up with someone who cares about being happy and who wants to be with someone who does too, based on an agreement to respect and nurture each other’s personal emotional and spiritual evolution. That removes all expectations, projections, assumptions and presumptions. Who said anything about monogamy? What’s that and why is it relevant if our relationship is about wanting each other to be happy and support each other in their growth towards being their best selves.

All of the ideals and assumptions of traditional relationships must be put aside for real. The concept that you “belong “ to me or that I owe you anything other than respect and honesty has to be consciously challenged and mutually agreed upon as an outdated model that never worked and only created codependent relationships and stagnation, provided excuses for not being responsible for self and endless opportunities to cop out and disengage.

If all this sounds like hippie psycho babble, you just aren’t ready for it yet. But I have been with my husband for over twenty years and we don’t have any of the usual issues that most traditional families do. Sure we have our shit- everyone does- but we have yet to be in a situation where we are at odds with each other. We’re always on the same team, even when we’re having a disagreement. It’s not about who’s right or who wins, it’s about working together to find a solution. There have to be some fundamental pillars on which this type of relationship is built. Feeling like you are each choosing to stay with each other rather than taking each other for granted or finding ways to make each other feel dependent or insecure.

If my husband meets a beautiful billionaire who wants to take him around the world and give him anything he could ever want, I am all for it… and I know he would say the same thing. Go! Find happiness. Leave a mark on the world - be your best possible self! I would be incredibly happy and proud of him and would know that I didn’t try to keep him here, hold him back, or even make him feel guilty. And he would do the same for me.

Knowing that changes the dynamics of the relationship. He has seen me with a dick in my mouth and said “enjoy yourself- I’ll be in here lmk when you’re done” without any passive aggression or attitude. Cause he knows what we have with each other has absolutely nothing to do with me sucking a dick, or even me going buck wild sexually and being a total whore. We know that’s recreational. It has nothing to do with our mutual support for each other’s personal evolution. It’s irrelevant to the bigger picture and only matters if we give it the power to do so, which we simply choose not to do. We’re queer- we have the opportunity to create a new way of thinking about relationships, marriage and family. Why adopt failed strategies or meaningless traditions when we can make our own rules and carve out new ways of defining what will and won’t be acceptable in our future society. My open, honest non traditional queer marriage stands as an example to those who come after me that these institutions can be redefined in whatever way we see fit if we’re just willing to learn from the past and choose to do something different, fuck the rules and to hell with what you or anyone else thinks about it.

Like anything else in life there’s nothing to it but to do it. I’m not perfect but I’m in a long time relationship with no fighting, no lies, no insecurity or fear and no expectation other than love and respect. It’s based on the idea of the chosen family - I choose my spouse not for sexual satisfaction- I can get that anywhere. Not for financial, professional, or social gain, but to honestly be seen, respected and supported in my journey of self discovery and spiritual enlightenment.

Enlightenment exists. There are infinite layers to the onion. Don’t allow yourself to get distracted by the details.

Ask yourself what you want to be written in your obituary! I’ve done my bucket list. Now I want to do things that make a lasting positive difference in people’s lives. Thats actually why I posted this here

 

[Infernal]

Love is love, regardless of gender or orientation. You, not society, determine the parameters of your relationship. If you want monogamy, then it has whatever value you and your partner assign to it. I still believe love is out there, but technology has made it difficult to find. The hookup sites have made meeting people transactional. How can you build a relationship with someone when all they are offering you is an unlocked door to a dark room and a lubed hole to unload in? It's become so anonymous that it's more like using someone's ass for masturbation.

My husband and I met on Men 4 Sex Now, but that's only where we made contact. We spent months chatting on Yahoo Messenger before we met in person. We've been together for 16 years, married for 10. We are not monogamous. It works for us and is not a threat to our relationship.

 

[Kinglmao]

You’re missing the point if you allow yourself to be distracted by the details- this isn’t about specifics it’s a concept. Im gonna try to partner up with someone who cares about being happy and who wants to be with someone who does too, based on an agreement to respect and nurture each other’s personal emotional and spiritual evolution. That removes all expectations, projections, assumptions and presumptions. Who said anything about monogamy? What’s that and why is it relevant if our relationship is about wanting each other to be happy and support each other in their growth towards being their best selves.

All of the ideals and assumptions of traditional relationships must be put aside for real. The concept that you “belong “ to me or that I owe you anything other than respect and honesty has to be consciously challenged and mutually agreed upon as an outdated model that never worked and only created codependent relationships and stagnation, provided excuses for not being responsible for self and endless opportunities to cop out and disengage.

If all this sounds like hippie psycho babble, you just aren’t ready for it yet. But I have been with my husband for over twenty years and we don’t have any of the usual issues that most traditional families do. Sure we have our shit- everyone does- but we have yet to be in a situation where we are at odds with each other. We’re always on the same team, even when we’re having a disagreement. It’s not about who’s right or who wins, it’s about working together to find a solution. There have to be some fundamental pillars on which this type of relationship is built. Feeling like you are each choosing to stay with each other rather than taking each other for granted or finding ways to make each other feel dependent or insecure.

If my husband meets a beautiful billionaire who wants to take him around the world and give him anything he could ever want, I am all for it… and I know he would say the same thing. Go! Find happiness. Leave a mark on the world - be your best possible self! I would be incredibly happy and proud of him and would know that I didn’t try to keep him here, hold him back, or even make him feel guilty. And he would do the same for me.

Knowing that changes the dynamics of the relationship. He has seen me with a dick in my mouth and said “enjoy yourself- I’ll be in here lmk when you’re done” without any passive aggression or attitude. Cause he knows what we have with each other has absolutely nothing to do with me sucking a dick, or even me going buck wild sexually and being a total whore. We know that’s recreational. It has nothing to do with our mutual support for each other’s personal evolution. It’s irrelevant to the bigger picture and only matters if we give it the power to do so, which we simply choose not to do. We’re queer- we have the opportunity to create a new way of thinking about relationships, marriage and family. Why adopt failed strategies or meaningless traditions when we can make our own rules and carve out new ways of defining what will and won’t be acceptable in our future society. My open, honest non traditional queer marriage stands as an example to those who come after me that these institutions can be redefined in whatever way we see fit if we’re just willing to learn from the past and choose to do something different, fuck the rules and to hell with what you or anyone else thinks about it.

Like anything else in life there’s nothing to it but to do it. I’m not perfect but I’m in a long time relationship with no fighting, no lies, no insecurity or fear and no expectation other than love and respect. It’s based on the idea of the chosen family - I choose my spouse not for sexual satisfaction- I can get that anywhere. Not for financial, professional, or social gain, but to honestly be seen, respected and supported in my journey of self discovery and spiritual enlightenment.

Enlightenment exists. There are infinite layers to the onion. Don’t allow yourself to get distracted by the details.

Ask yourself what you want to be written in your obituary! I’ve done my bucket list. Now I want to do things that make a lasting positive difference in people’s lives. Thats actually why I posted this here

I respect your answer, I do , and you did help me realize what I want . And it’s with all due respect I say it’s definitely not what you have. It sounds like you and your partner make it work beautifully for you . But I don’t wanna a swinger type open relationship because if someone loves me enough to be with me why do they want anyone else ? I tried the open thing before and honestly it triggers me . For a lot of reasons one being I get jealous and the second reason I don’t understand if I want you and you want me, why do we need to go outside of that . If the desires change then ok cool i understand and we have to move on from each other . But I have no desire to sucks and fuck the world , I barely have desire to suck and fuck one person , I’ve been a hoe I’ve seen dicks all over the world , I’m good on that . If my relationship isn’t for the purpose of me being seen , heard, loved , to love , to hear , to see, to protect and be protected , to have security and provide it , and etc . Then why do I want that ? An open relationship to me is just another lust problem and commitment problem . But your right monogamous relationships were forced on people and didn’t work but I feel like that’s because overall people choose who they like in the now and don’t really think long term , and shit changes and people want growth easy and that’s just not always how it works but sometimes growth in a relationship is letting go. Some people can do it and some people can’t but good for both those types of people that know what they can and can’t do . But yeah I get older I see monogamy is more my style and I don’t think that’s gonna change . And if never find it and it never comes that’s ok with me because I’m in a monogamous relationship with my self that’s growing quite beautifully. But it’s with your help I was able to come to this conclusion, so keep on posting your opinions because new perspectives help to bring new revelations.

 

[JackifSpades]

Life is full of choices. You do you - all I’m trying to say is that it’s possible if you adapt it to your needs

 

[CmdrShepard]

I choose my spouse not for sexual satisfaction- I can get that anywhere. Not for financial, professional, or social gain, but to honestly be seen, respected and supported in my journey of self discovery and spiritual enlightenment.

I have mixed feelings for open relationships, but these words are well placed.

The hookup sites have made meeting people transactional. How can you build a relationship with someone when all they are offering you is an unlocked door to a dark room and a lubed hole to unload in? It's become so anonymous that it's more like using someone's ass for masturbation.

Perfectly summed up.

 

[CmdrShepard]

I respect your answer, I do , and you did help me realize what I want . And it’s with all due respect I say it’s definitely not what you have. It sounds like you and your partner make it work beautifully for you . But I don’t wanna a swinger type open relationship because if someone loves me enough to be with me why do they want anyone else ? I tried the open thing before and honestly it triggers me . For a lot of reasons one being I get jealous and the second reason I don’t understand if I want you and you want me, why do we need to go outside of that . If the desires change then ok cool i understand and we have to move on from each other . But I have no desire to sucks and fuck the world , I barely have desire to suck and fuck one person , I’ve been a hoe I’ve seen dicks all over the world , I’m good on that . If my relationship isn’t for the purpose of me being seen , heard, loved , to love , to hear , to see, to protect and be protected , to have security and provide it , and etc . Then why do I want that ? An open relationship to me is just another lust problem and commitment problem . But your right monogamous relationships were forced on people and didn’t work but I feel like that’s because overall people choose who they like in the now and don’t really think long term , and shit changes and people want growth easy and that’s just not always how it works but sometimes growth in a relationship is letting go. Some people can do it and some people can’t but good for both those types of people that know what they can and can’t do . But yeah I get older I see monogamy is more my style and I don’t think that’s gonna change . And if never find it and it never comes that’s ok with me because I’m in a monogamous relationship with my self that’s growing quite beautifully. But it’s with your help I was able to come to this conclusion, so keep on posting your opinions because new perspectives help to bring new revelations.

It sounds weird, but seeing how sex has become casual with hookup culture growing and technology providing more possibilities than ever (for hookups). Deciding to share your life with someone and build a future feels more intimate that having sex. - This is the side of open relationships I can understand.

Doesn't mean I want to fuck random guys while having a boyfriend, no. But I can see their point. And I can see how one could want to experience something purely physical while still being emotionally involved with someone else.

 

[Urien]

I can see the logic of Open Relationships in that I would never want to be an obstacle or restrain to the happiness of someone I love. But this also entails that you perceive monogamy as some sort of prison. I think Monogamy in its purest form is very liberating.

It's like sobriety. Sobriety can be a holy experience. So monogamy can even be spiritual. You transcend desire. You are not monogamous for your partner, you are monogamous for yourself and they are monogamous for themselves. If you understand monogamy you won't even need discipline to practice it.

The thing is you can't force yourself to be monogamous for another person, before you master yourself. You will eventually feel tethered like animal.

Don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with promiscuity, but still feeling the need to be promiscuous in a relationship just sounds bestial to me. As in someone that cannot fully master their urges. Especially if you seek out these extramarital encounters separately instead of together.

 

[Infernal]

I choose my spouse not for sexual satisfaction- I can get that anywhere. Not for financial, professional, or social gain, but to honestly be seen, respected and supported in my journey of self discovery and spiritual enlightenment.

This is us exactly. We are there for each other where it counts. We see through each other's insecurities and lean into each other's strengths. If one of us wants to get some friction on the side, it's not all that important compared to everything else the relationship brings.

We also have this long-running joke about it. On those occasions when we do fight, I can tell him to get fucked, mean it, and not be upset when he does. More than once, he's started to get wound up over something, and I've interrupted him, told him to get some dick and come home with a better attitude before he opens his mouth and pisses me off. He either rolls his eyes at me and drops it or does exactly that. He will say the same thing to me if I'm being cranky. An open relationship requires brutal honesty, so balancing it with bitchy humor helps.

 

[dreamer20]

you perceive monogamy as some sort of prison. I think Monogamy is very liberating.
It's like sobriety. Sobriety can be a holy experience. So monogamy can be.. You transcend desire. You are monogamous for yourself, partner, your partner for themselves. If you understand monogamy you won't even need discipline to practice it.. there is nothing wrong with promiscuity, but still feeling the need to be promiscuous in a relationship just sounds bestial to me. As someone that cannot fully master their urges. Especially if seeking extramarital encounters separately instead of together.

^^Those are your beliefs, in accord with those of ascetic Christians. Others, such as I, do not share your beliefs. I don't judge, disparage, or view persons involved in polygyny, polygamy, open marriages and sexual liberty as being unholy. For me monogamy, as recognized legally in Western society, comprises an official marital union of no more than two persons - and not a synonym for the word fidelity.
Marriage - Still Relevant?

Re the OP: I would have substituted the word "fidelity" for "monogamous love" as the conflation of those terms doesn't make sense IMO. As for lasting relationships - those individuals simply have to accept each other, as is, be willing to forgive & forget and abide together in peace.

 

[Urien]

^^Those are your beliefs, in accord with those of ascetic Christians.

No they are not. I'm as atheist as they come. I'm also terribly sexually liberated when not in a relationship.

These "beliefs" are my rational understandings of how best to operate in a relationship based on experience and research.

Monogamy is choosing to love/fuck one person. That's literally all it is.

All this other nonsense you mentioned about unholy open marriages/sexual liberty came from you not me.